Turbo Ti

[SDKmann]

Hey, I was just checking to see how many people here are trying to build turbo tis. I remeber one guy asking around for a engine because his turbo blew his. After I saw that $1600 95 ti Ive been inspired to spend all my time and money building a M42 turbo. So, who here has a turbo ti, plans on building a turbo ti, or knows anything about building a turbo ti?

[Variance]

REDIS had/has a turbo 318, so he's a good person to talk to. I'm also looking into putting together a custom turbo setup, and would reccomend reading "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell.

[AlaskaBlue]

Good luck.. You are going to need it. I think building a turbo kit may be a little more involved than you are thinking. Anyway hope everything goes well for you. Someone posted up a nice tubular manifold for the M42. That would be a good place to start.

[nuvolarossa]

Good luck.. You are going to need it. I think building a turbo kit may be a little more involved than you are thinking. Anyway hope everything goes well for you. Someone posted up a nice tubular manifold for the M42. That would be a good place to start.

For sure it's easier that my custom eaton supercharger setup...:eek:
The big problem is the manifold! Buy it from neukin or going custom?

[SDKmann]

Im not sure how or if Im going to do it yet, Im just checking things out to see how much info is out there. I know that this will be a very involved project and will probably take over a year and I will need to learn a lot more before I could finish. At this point Im not even sure if I want to do it to a ti or a E30 325. Right now Im just trying to get all the info I can.

[7808]

Good luck.. You are going to need it. I think building a turbo kit may be a little more involved than you are thinking. Anyway hope everything goes well for you. Someone posted up a nice tubular manifold for the M42. That would be a good place to start.

whats so hard about it? are you comparing it to bolting on a supercharger? or is it just hard to come across manifolds and other parts? or is it actually harder then turboing any other 4cyl non-factory turbo cars? is there sensors or fuel/oil delivery problems?

explain if you would thanks.

i know it takes me about 2-3 days of a few hours here and there to install a full turbo kit with fmic and real engine managment in a honda civic, what makes these harder? i know next to nothing about these cars.. i found this forum searching about them because i found one cheap

[pdxmotorhead]

Look under the hood... ;)

You almost can't touch the exhaust manifold because of clearance to the strut tower. Remember its a real sports car,
the engine is correctly installed :)

Dave

[AutoM3otives]

soup nazi from bimmerforums runs an m42 motor, turbo, with a custom fuel management system and full custom exhaust, basically straight thru. i think also with some cams, nothing more on the motor.

260 crank.

EDIT: omg i just realized you said TURBO, not supercharged. soup nazi runs supercharged, not turbo.

MY BAD HAHA.

[AlaskaBlue]

whats so hard about it? are you comparing it to bolting on a supercharger? or is it just hard to come across manifolds and other parts? or is it actually harder then turboing any other 4cyl non-factory turbo cars? is there sensors or fuel/oil delivery problems?

explain if you would thanks.

i know it takes me about 2-3 days of a few hours here and there to install a full turbo kit with fmic and real engine managment in a honda civic, what makes these harder? i know next to nothing about these cars.. i found this forum searching about them because i found one cheap

For starters the kit would have to be mainly custom unless you want to get some sort of low hp mosselman kit. I mean if you want to try it go for it you sound experienced with hondas so give it a go. I would love for you to show me how easy it is to slap on a largely custom made turbo set up and have a good tune in a couple 2-3 hour days.

That would make my life a lot easier.

[7808]

my kit wasent a really a "kit", it was pieced together, not only was my kit custom, it was made from used parts for other cars of differnt makes (mistsubishi turbo, injectors, bov) so they wernt exactly made for a honda civic, the exhaust and intercooler piping was custom made from 2.5" bends, the kit made my 127hp civic 180hp at only 6psi. it was dyno tuned in under 3hrs, not by me. kit was capable of a estimated 250hp. my car was tuned conserveitivly <-misspelled at only 167whp /180chp for reliablilty and drivablity (traction). still got amazing mpg too. sure its not as easy as a civic but hey its a 4 banger so it shouldnt be to hard.

i just think its kinda crazy when people spend 3k or whatever on a supercharger when i made that turbo kit for around 1k with full custom exhaust and real engine manament (not a fmu)

there is somwhat inexpensive engine managment for these cars to check out megasquirt. i recently un-installed that turbo kit after 3k miles of 0 problems to sell the car, i transfered it to a buddys car in 2 days and burned a chip, sent him to the tuner. you guys should check out homemadeturbo.com

if you can weld, you can turbo your car for cheaper then some might think, i dont know how to but i had friends/shops weld the manifold/exhaust and used couplers where i could. i think a turbo 318ti would be a blast. to bad the one i went and looked at turned out to be a pile or i would most likely have been posting my progress soon

[Steve in No Va]

I saw you mentioned an e30 as a possibility. If you go that route, there is a kit you can buy. It's not cheap, but it is well thought out, high quality and can be purchased either with or without an intercooler. Go to www.turbochargingdynamics.com to see it. They have a client that ran an 11.85 quarter mile on stock internals. The kit with intercooler is in the $6k range, but it is worth it if you don't want alot of headaches.

If you go the e28/e34 route, the cost is about the same, and the cars are relatively cheap due to the popularity of the e30. I have an e28 with the M30/B34 motor. I bought the kit with an intercooler. It has serious kick at 8 pounds of boost. Some guys are going with alloy pistons and custom fuel management. They are pushing over 400whp/400wtq. My level of boost is be about 260whp/310wtq.

From the threads on the mye28.com site, the cost differential is worth the headaches and lower output of trying to piece together a kit.

I almost forgot, I did talk to a guy with a co called Pitstop Performance in Alexandria, VA a few years ago. He knows of a turbo kit for the M42/M44 motor. I don't have his number, but you may be able to find him on the web.

[pnosker]

Mosselman makes a turbo kit... it's the only one I know of. Why do you want a turbo instead of a supercharger again? The turbo just can't effectively put out much gain due to the low exhaust nature of how small the motor is. 1.9L of exhaust gas just doesn't drive a turbo fast enough to provide much boost.

[DustenT]

Mosselman makes a turbo kit... it's the only one I know of. Why do you want a turbo instead of a supercharger again? The turbo just can't effectively put out much gain due to the low exhaust nature of how small the motor is. 1.9L of exhaust gas just doesn't drive a turbo fast enough to provide much boost.

With the right size turbo it doesn't matter what size the motor is...

The mosselman turbo kit is a good start, but 5psi of boost isn't going to keep you happy for long.

[Steve in No Va]

Dusten is right. The motor is plenty big, it's the application that makes the difference. The Evo motor and the SR20DET are both only 2.0 liter twin cams. They make plenty horsepower.

I think what you need depends on your use. If you autocross or stoplight drag, the DASC is the better application because it makes big torque early but is less effective at higher rpms. If you race on road courses or 1/4 mile drag, a well engineered turbo/intercooled system will be better because it will give you a lot more power from 4,000 to 7,000 rpms, but will have even less torque than stock below 3,000 rpms.

[7808]

ya saying a 1.8l is to small to spool a turbo is a un-educated comment. theres plenty of 1.8L hondas making 300+ hp alot on stock blocks, my motor was a 1.6L in my civic and it could make 200hp easy, i was there a few times messing with a boost controller, probly more like 220. ya my motor wont spool a t-60 very well its all about the right compressor for your motor

super chargers a nice, but there not very cost effective in my opinion, why not build a custom turbo kit? find a performance shop around you that can build you a manifold and get some engine manament, everything else is basic pluming.

[pnosker]

Yeah, you're right, but as you move to smaller turbos with more sophisticated equipment, you end up getting higher and higher in cost until you get to supercharger territory. Also there's turbo lag, and the lack of reliability you get with naturally aspirated motors. And what if you blow your motor with too much boost? Just a turbo can't give you 300+ hp with the M44. You need forged cranks if you want reliability, better seals, etc. It was a generalized statement regarding ease of application. The DASC is much better suited for a beginner with a low number of modifications.

I like turbos, but I don't like the lag and lower reliability.

The M42 and M44 stock blocks can't handle 300hp.

[Variance]

7808, a T60 is still on the large side for our engines. That's more like 325 territory.

pnosker, a properly put-together turbo setup will not be any less reliable than an n/a engine. Now, if you run too much boost, then yeah, the reliability goes out the window, but that goes right back to having a properly engineered setup. However, you are completely correct that the DASC route is less complicated and more suited for a beginner.

[7808]

ya i was saying as an example, if i put the wrong turbo on my motor it would suck.

small or large turbo, the equipment is the same, none are really more sophisticated then others, but most smaller turbos are internally gated, actually makes it a little easier, only thing motor specific is the manifold and exhaust system, which is also why turbo parts are easier to re-sell. turbos are also easier to add power, you just up the boost, no need to change pulleys.

superchargers are probly easier to install i would imagine, and in some cars its probly best if you can afford it due to space in the engine bay

i personally like turbo lag, besides with lighter cars, most cars, you cant use instant power, unless you have drag radials and stuff, i like the power kick-in at mid rpms

[hatchgrafix]

There seems to be such a bias with the Supercharger and that doesn't seem right to me. I will be doing the turbo setup on my 318ti and I will love it! With an electronic boost controller, mounted in the cabin, I can turn down the boost and drive the interstate with better gas mileage than the SC. I'm sure most of you know that already.

At any rate, I need a M42 turbo manifold, otherwise I'll find a shop to fab one up. I'm rebuilding a T28 from a SR20DET for this project. Luckily my friend had an old one that just needs to be rebuilt. If anyone has interest in my project, let me know!

So I'm told the stock Mass Airflow Sensor and Computer can calculate Air to Fuel Ratio's up to 8-10Lbs of boost (been awhile since I've checked my sources.) So this makes things even easier for this car, as for Honda's (which is where I got my start) you need to do alot more tuning, etc. In theory the m42 can handle like 8-10Lbs without engine management. Naturally I will be replacing the Fuel Pump, adding a Rising Rate fuel pressure regulator along with a Lambda and EGT probe, boost controller, boost gauge, oil pressure meter, and engine temp gauge.

I know I would be happy with just 8Lbs of boost! Again, there is always that need for speed, and by going turbo, there is always that ability for more, if you are willing to spend the time and money.

Now you probably might ask me this: Why not just go with the big 6 swap, example m3? Honestly I like the feeling of turbo's, I like the sound, and I love to tinker with them! Not to mention gas mileage! (and the chics will dig it!) :smile:

[hhspunter]

With the right size turbo it doesn't matter what size the motor is...

The mosselman turbo kit is a good start, but 5psi of boost isn't going to keep you happy for long.

i was gonna say... i may not know too much, but i do know that 2 litre engines are great for turbo charging...

[mooseheadm5]

If you race on road courses or 1/4 mile drag, a well engineered turbo/intercooled system will be better because it will give you a lot more power from 4,000 to 7,000 rpms, but will have even less torque than stock below 3,000 rpms.

Depends on how big the turbo is. A mosselman turbo shows these characteristics:
http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/mosselman1.9.jpg
A huge turbo would make huge power but take a long time to spool up. Small turbos spool up fast and don't usually effect low end noticably.
-Paul

[p1zl3]

Hey Speed Cats!
--From what I've found regarding turbos on 318ti's; It's a "no bueno" choice for true speed junkies. Aparently you can only safely run approx. 5.5psi and that really isn't enough to push you around at the rate turbos should! We're talking $2k in parts only to be burned off the line by Subies and Hondas still. If you're looking to whipe the asses of some Volvos and Taurus' then by all means install it...but for your buck, just do the swap.
--You can pick up a 3-series engine (non-M) for approx $2k and thats a whole lot easier/cheaper to build up than the 318ti's little 1.9L! Your gains will be far more substantial for the buck...

Let's face it folks...BMW dooped us with the 1.9L engine, but drop in a 328i 6cyl and you've got the car that BMW should have created!

This dude did everything to his 318ti and this is his review of the work:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2168013

cheers,
p1zl3

[pnosker]

p1zl3, have you read anything about the DASC... or any other forced induction for that matter? Board members have easily gotten 7psi + on their M42 and M44 motors. The 1.9l supercharged is more powerful than the 2.5l and some 2.8l motors depending on how much induction is forced. SEAM is working on a supercharger rivaling the M 3.2l motor.

Edit:
Also, he has an auto (which is considerably slower in 0-60 times) which is another reason why Civic EX's were beating him. And the Mosselman turbo isn't exactly wonderful in performance gains either.

[Dirtsquirt]

This dude did everything to his 318ti and this is his review of the work:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2168013

cheers,
p1zl3

:blink:


That's all I've got to say about that...

-Dan

[mohaughn]

Man.. I would love to see somebody try to do an i6 swap properly for less than 5k. It is kind of funny the amount of people that come on here and try to tell us that it can be done for 2k. Yeah, you can swap just the motor and leave just about everything else stock but the engine is not going to be cooled properly, won't stop well, and won't handle well. I think 7k is realistic if you can do all of the work yourself. More like $10k easily.

And as far as PSI.. With proper tuning I don't see any reason that an M42 can't run in excess of 10PSI with a properly tuned and cooled FI system. CardCounter(on Bfc) was running in excess of 25PSI on his stock internal engine for quit some time. And most people I have talked to about it say the m42 is an m52 missing two cylinders in terms of build quality and internal components. So you can get more than the 10PSI offered by a Nick G. stage 3 dasc kit, but nobody makes a kit, and from what I've seen nobody has really tackled the project and done it right yet. The only reason Nick G. didn't go higher is the lack of a good intercooler for the DASC.

MetricMechanic can build you a turbo motor, you'd have to find somebody to build the turbo and tune it, that can safely handle 250-300hp. Or they can get really wild and do an m42 that can handle up to 350hp.

[kelso]

im another that plans on going turbo. maybe within the next year i hope.
and i saw somebody make a turbo lag comment....downshift! honestly if you have turbo lag then your in the wrong gear. its like trying to punch it in 5th gear at 40 MPH. rpm's are too low and your not in the prime gear so you downshift. and 1.8 is very far from too small. the hondas are a good example. even better is the VW 1.8t motor. people get some crazy power out of that motor!

[Panzer_M]

:blink:


That's all I've got to say about that...

-Dan

that car is beat, it may have boost but it needs to be cleaned up. Looks like a Kid's upgraded Honda.

[DustenT]

im another that plans on going turbo. maybe within the next year i hope.
and i saw somebody make a turbo lag comment....downshift! honestly if you have turbo lag then your in the wrong gear. its like trying to punch it in 5th gear at 40 MPH. rpm's are too low and your not in the prime gear so you downshift. and 1.8 is very far from too small. the hondas are a good example. even better is the VW 1.8t motor. people get some crazy power out of that motor!

Turbo lag can't be cured by downshifting...

[kelso]

generally speaking thats always been my experience with turbo cars. downshift to put yourself in the correct RPM range for the best results from the turbo. also if you have a massive turbo its going to take a lot of exhaust to gte it spooling so choosing the correct size is a different factor.

[pdxmotorhead]

Most modern turbo's when properly sized pretty much eliminated turbo lag. The turbine designes are way better even in just the last couple years. The key is to make sure that for the given engine displacement that you size the turbo to stay spinning, go too big get lag, too small and no boost at higher RPM.

Also don't bother with a turbo timer. A complete rebuild on a turbocharger is < 400 bucks. Unless its a ball bearing unit which spools faster but most of them can't be rebuilt so the center section is a throwaway. A complete center section for most turbos runs less than 600.

Also on MAF vehicles dump the BOV back into the intake just after the MAF, it keeps the mixture more stable.

Bye!
Dave

[hhspunter]

okay so i'm seriously considering turboing the m44... i have my dad to show me how it's done, and he's got years of turbo experience. how much boost could i run on stock m44 internals, for short amounts of time?

[pdxmotorhead]

Its got the same limits as any highly strung 4 cyl with good guts. With the stock compression your going to have to run either very high octane/expensive fuel, or water/alchy injection, or both depending on the Boost to avoid detonation.

The thing these engine don't have vs the Hondas is the variable valve timing which can really help raise the limits with a little more safety factor.

If you want a real full potential engine get ready to open a vein/wallet. Youll need a very good engine rebuild to exploit it to the limit. with dished pistons, strong rods and a lot of tweeking I could see potentially 425 out of this engine, and you'd have just about twice the money in it that a M3 engine swap would cost.

Boosting the TI is an intermediate step, a DASC makes decent power, for the $$ and the inconvenience to install.
A turbo system would have similar results, with the limit being the motors design.

Keep us updated on how you attack it...!!

Dave

[hhspunter]

Its got the same limits as any highly strung 4 cyl with good guts. With the stock compression your going to have to run either very high octane/expensive fuel, or water/alchy injection, or both depending on the Boost to avoid detonation.

The thing these engine don't have vs the Hondas is the variable valve timing which can really help raise the limits with a little more safety factor.

If you want a real full potential engine get ready to open a vein/wallet. Youll need a very good engine rebuild to exploit it to the limit. with dished pistons, strong rods and a lot of tweeking I could see potentially 425 out of this engine, and you'd have just about twice the money in it that a M3 engine swap would cost.

Boosting the TI is an intermediate step, a DASC makes decent power, for the $$ and the inconvenience to install.
A turbo system would have similar results, with the limit being the motors design.

Keep us updated on how you attack it...!!

Dave

do you have any idea what psi i could run on stock internals with water injection though? like a ballpark figure? i'm trying to keep the project under $1000 which rules out DASC... but it's very possible to do this project for little money with some custom fabrication. my dad's up for it as soon as i get my college applications done

[DustenT]

do you have any idea what psi i could run on stock internals with water injection though? like a ballpark figure? i'm trying to keep the project under $1000 which rules out DASC... but it's very possible to do this project for little money with some custom fabrication. my dad's up for it as soon as i get my college applications done

Order the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. It is a MUST READ book before attempting any kind of custom turbo setup. It'll help you size everything correctly.

do you have any idea what psi i could run on stock internals with water injection though? like a ballpark figure?

I ran 9psi with and without water injection, just lots of gas.

[hhspunter]

Order the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. It is a MUST READ book before attempting any kind of custom turbo setup. It'll help you size everything correctly.



I ran 9psi with and without water injection, just lots of gas.

and how much power did you make?
i have turbochargers by by hugh macinnes. it's from 1984, but all the basics are still there. he talks about a bunch of stuff, like water injection. the part i found the most helpful was how to choose a turbo based on compressor maps. i found that most small turbos are above 70% efficiency. i think i'll get maximum boost though. it's a 22 year update

[TORJTHM]

hey hows it going guys its been a while since iv been on ... any ways i am currently in the middle of a turbo project for my ti ... i am keeping the m44 but i am rebuilding it ... stronger pistons every thing ... my advice if you wanting good power and boosting more then 9psi then you going to have to build the motor out of the car ... my goal is to be pushing about 380 to the wheels which about right now im close ... my turbo set up is full custom ... me and my friend are building it out of his grage ... im running a greddy stage 2 turbo every thing else has ben fabricated or modified to work ... ill let you know what happens on our first dino pull wich should be happening within a month

[pdxmotorhead]

I think DustenT is right. I don't see how to go much over 9bs without an add-on fuel system. Especially not on the 1K budget..

An adjustable rr fuel regulator alone is going to cost you about 150. Unless your a fabrication god the exhaust manifold is going to cost at least 500 to have built,
just about has to be tig welded stainless heavy wall to survive. Because of the clearance issues youll want a wrap or ceramic coating to protect the fenders. You just can't substitute any injector like japanes cars, the BMW uses bleeder injectors, so only the higher end european cars are potential doners...

Every time I've priced forced induction, done right, the total tab has approached 4000 dollars, The rest of the drivetrain needs assistance to take the power the boosted motor will make. So add an expensive BMW clutch to yor shopping list... :) Possibly a new rear end.

Good Luck
Dave

[hhspunter]

I think DustenT is right. I don't see how to go much over 9bs without an add-on fuel system. Especially not on the 1K budget..

An adjustable rr fuel regulator alone is going to cost you about 150. Unless your a fabrication god the exhaust manifold is going to cost at least 500 to have built,
just about has to be tig welded stainless heavy wall to survive. Because of the clearance issues youll want a wrap or ceramic coating to protect the fenders. You just can't substitute any injector like japanes cars, the BMW uses bleeder injectors, so only the higher end european cars are potential doners...

Every time I've priced forced induction, done right, the total tab has approached 4000 dollars, The rest of the drivetrain needs assistance to take the power the boosted motor will make. So add an expensive BMW clutch to yor shopping list... :) Possibly a new rear end.

Good Luck
Dave

i don't know if i'd say my dad is a fabrication god, but maybe genius...

[hhspunter]

Its got the same limits as any highly strung 4 cyl with good guts. With the stock compression your going to have to run either very high octane/expensive fuel, or water/alchy injection, or both depending on the Boost to avoid detonation.

The thing these engine don't have vs the Hondas is the variable valve timing which can really help raise the limits with a little more safety factor.

If you want a real full potential engine get ready to open a vein/wallet. Youll need a very good engine rebuild to exploit it to the limit. with dished pistons, strong rods and a lot of tweeking I could see potentially 425 out of this engine, and you'd have just about twice the money in it that a M3 engine swap would cost.

Boosting the TI is an intermediate step, a DASC makes decent power, for the $$ and the inconvenience to install.
A turbo system would have similar results, with the limit being the motors design.

Keep us updated on how you attack it...!!

Dave

p.s. my dad was really good at rebuilding engines back in the day... turbo bavaria that revved to 10k for instance... and this was like 1980.... so if i want to go crazy i have quite the engine builder in my own house. but i'm looking for about 250 hp.

[pdxmotorhead]

Whatever you do, document the parts and shoot pics if possible, this question comes up a lot,,, A detailed report will make you famous! Well not really but we would all enjoy reading it!

Dave

[hhspunter]

Whatever you do, document the parts and shoot pics if possible, this question comes up a lot,,, A detailed report will make you famous! Well not really but we would all enjoy reading it!

Dave

will do!

[REDIS]

i'm trying to keep the project under $1000 ha.

[pdxmotorhead]

Until I saw the movie the Worlds Fastest Indian
I'd have laughed, Now I'm not sure, if you have
time, maybe you can make up for less dollars..

And a lot of u-pullit yard time.

Good Luck
Dave

[hhspunter]

alright, so i now have replaced the black 96 318i sedan with tan pleather interior and 190k with a black 98 318i sedan with tan pleather interior and 74k. so i now have a much better chance of not destroying my engine with a turbo. now i just have to convince my dad to help me out in exchange for getting my college apps in the mail by Christmas break, because i'd like to work on it over the break. two weeks of hanging out with my girl, working on my car, and doing some school work but not being stressed because college apps are out of the way.

oh yeah before the car came home we put in the eibach sportlines and bilstein sports, took the b&m race shifter (birthday present from the girlfriend) from the old car and put the nice wheels and tires on it (it came with hubcaps and 185/65's). pictures will be up soon. i'm going to miss my old car, timothy norstrem, but i like my new one a lot. and i'll like it a lot more with a turbo, even if everyone here thinks i'm stupid for wanting to do that, and not expecting to pay a ton of money. you'll see. and if it doesn't happen, i'll be too ashamed to show my face. but either way i won't get ragged on :)

[kelso]

i think its possible to do a very small and not very powerful setup for 1000... but it wont be very clean and iwll probably be a ton of junkyard parts like mentioned. why not just wait a few months and do a clean job on it

[hhspunter]

i think its possible to do a very small and not very powerful setup for 1000... but it wont be very clean and iwll probably be a ton of junkyard parts like mentioned. why not just wait a few months and do a clean job on it

my dad wouldn't let me do a dirty job. he's one for doing things very nicely if you're going to do it. no half-baked jobs with him. you either do it the right way or you don't do it. i trust his opinion on whether or not something is done "right"

[hhspunter]

okay so the project is starting... a turbo manifold for an m3 has been ordered... obviously some cutting and welding needs to be done. i might opt for the mosselman kit depending on the price, that way i have a platform to start from. but if it's too expensive, the custom job will start. i'm gonna be out of a car for a while...

anyways i was thinking practically and looking in the engine compartment, there's not much room for a turbo on the passenger side. so i was thinking maybe put the turbo on the driver side, like this guy does
http://www.da-motorsport.com/projeler/evolutionm3/index.htm
downpipe and stuff would be a pain after that but who cares about exhaust anyways? i'll just cut a hole in the front fender route a short pipe out and have 4-foot flames shoot out of it :biggrin: just kidding

but yeah i think overall it would be a lot easier to work with that way, at least as far as intercooler piping goes, because there is really no room on the passenger unless i figure out how to move the a/c lines

[Variance]

Punter, what are you planning to do for tuning? I mentioned this to you on FloridaGerman, but you never responded to my post.

[hhspunter]

Punter, what are you planning to do for tuning? I mentioned this to you on FloridaGerman, but you never responded to my post.

not sure yet... i e-mailed nick g and got a ballpark price and it's pretty expensive... i might go with a RRFPR like DASC (too many acronyms) but we'll see. i'm not looking for every ounce of power, but just to run smoothly. there was that post on the powercommander 3 but i haven't had time to read that whole document. well i have had time, i just spent it doing other things