Vented rear disk on an e36 compact?

[e36 323ti]

Is there anyone who has done a conversion from solid to vented rear disks on their ti's?

Direct link to my final solution:http://www.318ti.org/forum/showpost.php?p=299321&postcount=247

[L84THSKY]

Interesting idea, what needs to be changed, besides the rotors?

Is there anyone who has done a convertion from solid to vented rear disks on their ti's?

[Philly]

i have vented on my rears and solid on the front... did previous years come with all solids???

i know for a front solid to vented, you need to change the calipers, get pads for those calipers and stronger brake lines(i think) and then it should all work...

[L84THSKY]

Are you sure about having vented rear brakes? I have a 1998 with vented front brakes, but never heard of stock vented rear brakes. The rear rotor is actually a hub rotor in one. The hydraulic brake uses the rotor portion, the parking brake uses shoes in the hub.

i have vented on my rears and solid on the front... did previous years come with all solids???

i know for a front solid to vented, you need to change the calipers, get pads for those calipers and stronger brake lines(i think) and then it should all work...

[Philly]

nope, your absolutely right..
i don't know why i thought i had vented rears :?

[mohaughn]

I think you have to get the complete subframe from a z3 to upgrade the rear brakes without going aftermarket. There are other threads around from people who have done it.

[pdxmotorhead]

Based on temperature and wear I don'think vented rears will buy much. I work on a lot of race cars and vented rear brakes are uncommon until your either over 155mph or your car weighs over 3500 lbs.

Spec miata for example uses Hawk BLue pads front and Hawk Blacks in the rear because the blue don't get hot enough to work in the back.

Dave

[bullmand]

Just doing a quick check of parts diagrams at realoem.com shows that all the E36 models have non-vented rear rotors. Even the M cars. You could probably find a custom set-up on the aftermarket, but I really don't think it's worth that kind of money. See the reasons given in the previous posts.

[e36 323ti]

I think you have to get the complete subframe from a z3 to upgrade the rear brakes without going aftermarket. There are other threads around from people who have done it.

I have search alot, but has not succeed in finding anything. :frown:

What I plan to do is to use vented disks from the e36 328i/323i (276x19mm), callippers from the e36 328i drop-top (because it has 38mm pistons). The reason why is that I plan to use AP-Racing 4-pot callipers with 330mm disks up front. To maintain near stock like brake-bias the stuff from the drop-top is required (at least according to my calculations).

Please excuse my bad english :smile:

[pdxmotorhead]

:) Your calculations may be off, the proportioning valve on the stock system reduces rear braking substantially. I think I read 80%. Of course,, for track use,, you may need the extra cooling, be sure and let us know the result...

[mohaughn]

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9129

I have the 325mm BMW floating motorsport rotors from the e46-M up front with wilwood forged superlite calipers. On the rear I am running hawk hps street pads. I have no problems with brake bias. I've used the car at two track day events and several auto-x events. At Sebring I had one of the instructors drive the car and he even commented that he thought the braking abilities of the car were excellent. That is with the stock rear calipers and rotors.

UUC has their stage 3 brake kit, I have the stage 2, that includes front and rear wilwood calipers and the appropriate hangers and rotors. Althogh, if you are just going with a 330mm front brake kit the rears should be fine with a better brake pad.

[e36 323ti]

:) Your calculations may be off, the proportioning valve on the stock system reduces rear braking substantially. I think I read 80%. Of course,, for track use,, you may need the extra cooling, be sure and let us know the result...

To my knowledge there is no proportioning valve on my 323ti (I could not find it in the 'ETK') :cool:

.. and yes, it is beacuse of track use I am looking for more stopping power (or more correctly ways to handle the temperature). The rear pads (Ferodo DS2500) got fried on my last track day event, and delaminated. Also my front pads (DS2500) went away.

My calculations show that my 323ti has a stock bias setup by 72.6% (static). By going for the AP's with stock rear the bias goes up to 77%, which I think is too much. With AP up front and the proposed vented disks rear, my calculations reads 72.3% (very close to stock bias).

My 'ti: http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/photo_e36_323ti.htm

[e36 323ti]

Just doing a quick check of parts diagrams at realoem.com shows that all the E36 models have non-vented rear rotors. Even the M cars. You could probably find a custom set-up on the aftermarket, but I really don't think it's worth that kind of money. See the reasons given in the previous posts.

That's dependent on year of make. There was a change in 1996(?) when they went from 280x10mm solid to 276x19mm vented.

[bullmand]

I didn't realize you were in Europe. I was looking at the diagrams for the US models. Maybe you guys got vented rears and we didn't? For the record, I checked a 1998 323i and 1998 M roadster. If the rears on the M roadster are vented, there's info somewhere else on here about swapping the rear suspension from those onto the ti. Good luck.

[pdxmotorhead]

To my knowledge there is no proportioning valve on my 323ti (I could not find it in the 'ETK') :cool:

.. and yes, it is beacuse of track use I am looking for more stopping power (or more correctly ways to handle the temperature). The rear pads (Ferodo DS2500) got fried on my last track day event, and delaminated. Also my front pads (DS2500) went away.

My calculations show that my 323ti has a stock bias setup by 72.6% (static). By going for the AP's with stock rear the bias goes up to 77%, which I think is too much. With AP up front and the proposed vented disks rear, my calculations reads 72.3% (very close to stock bias).

My 'ti: http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/photo_e36_323ti.htm (http://home.online.no/%7Ekrimp/sweb/photo_e36_323ti.htm)

I believe its integrated into the ABS pump housing. But I work on enough different marques that I could have it crossed up.... :) Still like to hear how your works, its good to get real data from trying things whether they work or not... And if it didn't work its cool to figure out what happened

Dave

[sublimeti]

I got vented all around...i couldnt really say how they compare to the stock because i got them right when i got my car.(the stock ones were warped for days!) I decided to go vented all the way around because it was only a difference of about $200 more from oem....they break very well and look great too. I did not have to modify anything, besides replacing the pads.

[mohaughn]

I've not heard of ferodo pads so I looked them up.. The ds2500 is intended for street/light track use. I would think that if you are using the brakes hard enough to delaminate the 2500's maybe you should try the ds3000's that are strictly for track use.

You may also want to reference the thread that I linked to earlier and send a PM to J!m about what he did to upgrade the rear brakes on his car.

I decided to go vented all the way around because it was only a difference of about $200 more from oem....they break very well and look great too. I did not have to modify anything, besides replacing the pads.

Where did you find vented rear rotors for the Ti that fit the stock Ti calipers? I need new rear rotors right now and if I can get vented by just swapping rotors that would be a no brainer. But I've not been able to find them.

[e36 323ti]

I've not heard of ferodo pads so I looked them up.. The ds2500 is intended for street/light track use. I would think that if you are using the brakes hard enough to delaminate the 2500's maybe you should try the ds3000's that are strictly for track use.

Yes, for the next season (we are entering winter-time here where I am living) I am going to use DS3000, whatever disks.

You may also want to reference the thread that I linked to earlier and send a PM to J!m about what he did to upgrade the rear brakes on his car.

Thank's for the link. Complete M-Roadster/Coupe subframe is an option, but is hard to find. I guess M-Roadster/Coupe brakes (315mm(f)/312mm(r)) also require the M-Roadster/Coupe master cylinder, since the 323ti stock mc. has diameter 23.81mm and M-Roadster/Coupe has 25.4mm. I do not have data for the piston diameter for the rear callipper for the M-Roadster/Coupe, so I am unable to calculate the brake-bias :frown:

[e36 323ti]

I got vented all around...i couldnt really say how they compare to the stock because i got them right when i got my car.(the stock ones were warped for days!) I decided to go vented all the way around because it was only a difference of about $200 more from oem....they break very well and look great too. I did not have to modify anything, besides replacing the pads.

The stock rear solid disk on the ti' is 272x10mm. When going for wented disk I believed the width of the disk had to increase (typical 276x19mm), and that the callipper had to be replaced. Is there really wented disks fitting the callipper for the 272x10mm?

[L84THSKY]

The only way that seems possible is if the pads you used were thinner to accomodate the wider disks.


I got vented all around...i couldnt really say how they compare to the stock because i got them right when i got my car.(the stock ones were warped for days!) I decided to go vented all the way around because it was only a difference of about $200 more from oem....they break very well and look great too. I did not have to modify anything, besides replacing the pads.

[bullmand]

Just doing a quick check of parts diagrams at realoem.com shows that all the E36 models have non-vented rear rotors. Even the M cars.

OK. I just took off my asshat and checked the diagrams again. I was just looking at the pretty pictures and not the part descriptions. The rear rotors on the rear of the M3 and the M Roadster/Coupe do show vented rear rotors. Sorry about that. I'll do my research more carefully next time. I second the suggestion of curing your problems with better pads. Again, good luck and keep us posted.

[KIRASIR]

There are only two ways to run vented rear rotors on a ti:

1) MCoupe/Roadster trailing arms + calipers + rotors
2) Custom setup (Brembo/Willwood/etc cailipers + vented rotors)

The cheapest alternative is to run a very agressive pad in the rear.

SL

[e36 323ti]

There are only two ways to run vented rear rotors on a ti:

1) MCoupe/Roadster trailing arms + calipers + rotors
2) Custom setup (Brembo/Willwood/etc cailipers + vented rotors)

The cheapest alternative is to run a very agressive pad in the rear.

SL

1) Yes, this is an option
2) Neither Brembo nor Willwood make bolt on rear brakes for the 'ti (at least to my knowledge based on the contact that I have had with them).

I have just received callippers from the e36 328 drop-top, and requested a donation of some 276x19mm used disks in the spirit of research. If it is possible with rear brakes from the e36 m3 on an e30 (I know a guy that have done that), it should be possible with regular e36 rear brakes on the 'ti - I hope :cool:

I do expect fabrication of some spacers and adapters, but I do think it is doable (why do it easy ...:smile: )

[mohaughn]

1) Yes, this is an option
2) Neither Brembo nor Willwood make bolt on rear brakes for the 'ti (at least to my knowledge based on the contact that I have had with them).


Check with uucmotorwerks.com. Their kit is almost a straight bolt-on, you only have to grind down a casting nub on the stock caliper hanger for the fronts. I didn't buy their rear kit. But I would guess they can make the proper hangers for you as they do rear kits for the z3, and all e36's, and will be releasing an e30 kit soon. I was very happy with the quality of the front kit that I bought from them.

I guess the weight of a 323ti is different than a 318ti, so I didn't see the need to do the rears and the kit works great with the stock rear setup and agressive HPS pads.

I did have to run 5mm spacers to get my front wheels to fit over the wilwood calipers. I probably have about 3mm of clearance.

[e36 323ti]

Check with uucmotorwerks.com. Their kit is almost a straight bolt-on, you only have to grind down a casting nub on the stock caliper hanger for the fronts. I didn't buy their rear kit. But I would guess they can make the proper hangers for you as they do rear kits for the z3, and all e36's, and will be releasing an e30 kit soon. I was very happy with the quality of the front kit that I bought from them.

I guess the weight of a 323ti is different than a 318ti, so I didn't see the need to do the rears and the kit works great with the stock rear setup and agressive HPS pads.

I did have to run 5mm spacers to get my front wheels to fit over the wilwood calipers. I probably have about 3mm of clearance.


Do you know the data (disk size, piston diameter, pad friction coeff. both for front and rear) of your Willwood-kit? It could have been fun to do some calculation on it, just to see the theoretical change in bias.

[mohaughn]

front-
4 piston forged billet superlite caliper(120-7477)- http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/012-FSL/index.asp
bore size- 1.38" 35.0 mm
disc width- 1.10" 27.9mm

325mm rotor

street pads- wilwood bp-10 : 4.2 to 4.6
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/bp10.html

track pads- wilwood h-compound : 5.4 to 6.4
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/h.html


rear brakes are stock rotor/caliper: 5.2 (I'm guessing) can't find the exact coefficient
rear pads- Hawk Ceramic- hb227Z.630

I thought they were HPS on the back but they are the hawk ceramic pads.. I've had the front track pads on the car once since I installed this system. So for the most part I've been using the bp10's up front and the Hawk ceramics in the back when I've run out at sebring. I'm thinking when I start to run the track pads up front all of the time I may need to switch to a pad with a higher coefficient on the rear... I've been hesitant to use the track pads all of the time as I still drive the car on the street from time to time and they need to be warmed up to get real sticky.

I'm fairly certain that UUC did their bias calculations using the bp-10 pads up front and stock pads on the back. When I ordered the guy told me I may need to play with different pad combinations to get it dialed in. But they feel great now.

I see TCE has this brake bias calculator, but I don't know all of the info. Can you provide it so that we have it for anybody else to do their own calculations? Mainly the rear caliper piston size. http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake_bias_calculator.html

[Mendi3]

I have them all the way around. Check it out.

[e36 323ti]

front-
4 piston forged billet superlite caliper(120-7477)- http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/012-FSL/index.asp
bore size- 1.38" 35.0 mm
disc width- 1.10" 27.9mm

325mm rotor

street pads- wilwood bp-10 : 4.2 to 4.6
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/bp10.html

track pads- wilwood h-compound : 5.4 to 6.4
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/h.html


rear brakes are stock rotor/caliper: 5.2 (I'm guessing) can't find the exact coefficient
rear pads- Hawk Ceramic- hb227Z.630

I thought they were HPS on the back but they are the hawk ceramic pads.. I've had the front track pads on the car once since I installed this system. So for the most part I've been using the bp10's up front and the Hawk ceramics in the back when I've run out at sebring. I'm thinking when I start to run the track pads up front all of the time I may need to switch to a pad with a higher coefficient on the rear... I've been hesitant to use the track pads all of the time as I still drive the car on the street from time to time and they need to be warmed up to get real sticky.

I'm fairly certain that UUC did their bias calculations using the bp-10 pads up front and stock pads on the back. When I ordered the guy told me I may need to play with different pad combinations to get it dialed in. But they feel great now.

I see TCE has this brake bias calculator, but I don't know all of the info. Can you provide it so that we have it for anybody else to do their own calculations? Mainly the rear caliper piston size. http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/brake_bias_calculator.html

First: I do my bias calculation based on the stuff in the white papers from StopTech: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/The%20Physics%20of%20Braking%20Systems.pdf

Also I have found it useful to look at the information given at these links: http://phors.locost7.info/phors07.htm
http://www.movit.de/rahmen/stoptbl.htm

Second: I am working on bias calculations for the dynamic case, but have to determine some parameters before I am able to do good estimates.

The following calculations is for a static system, i.e. we do not consider the dynamic weight transfer that occur during braking. One can argue that this is wrong, but I think that if I know the static bias (i.e. how BMW designed the car), and manage to do brake upgrade that do not change the bias too much I think I can't do too much wrong. Also it looks to me that the calculator at TCE consider a static system.

What I then do is to define the bias as the ratio between the torque at the front wheel divided by the total torque at the wheels (Tf/(Tf+Tr). Then we do not need to know how hard we press on the pedal (assumed that the brake force is distributed evenly front/rear), because it falls out of the equation.

The data for the stock rear brakes are 272x10mm solid disks, and the piston diameter is 34mm (this is for my 323ti, but I think the data is the same for the 318ti). The diameter in the master sylinder is 23.81mm for both front and rear. I have found it useful to look at ATE's web site (http://www.contiteves-am.com/generator/www/com/en/ate/ate/general/home/index_en.html) for piston and master cylinder dimensions etc.

For the Willwood 120-7477 I have to calculate the effective piston area (Aeff=19.2cm^2 for one side of the callipper). Using a disk diameter of 325mm, and assuming the same pad friction coeff front and rear, my calculations gives that the static bias for your setup is 71.69%. The stock bias is 72.62%, and I would say that your setup is the best near-stock-bias I have seen on an after-market system. Also I do think that the slight transfer of bias towards the rear makes this a good setup (again: assuming same pads front and rear).

With bp-10 up front (.42) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 67.16%
With bp-10 up front (.46) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 69.14%
With h-comp. up front (.54) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 72.45%
With h-comp. up front (.56) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 73.17%

As a comparison, 300mm disks from e46 325i up front and stock rear gives a bias of 73.56% (assuming same pads front/rear), which is very close to your setup with h-comp front, Hawk Ceram rear and hot front brakes.

As additional info the AP-Racing I am looking at gives me 76.78% bias with stock rear, which I think is a bit too much (and is one of the reasons why I am looking for upgrading my rear brakes). With the callipper from e36 328 drop-top (38mm piston dia) and 276x19mm vented rear disk I am able to achieve a bias of 72.29%. With the same setup, but rear callipper from the e36 325 (36mm piston dia) and master cylinder from e46 325 (23.81/22.2 mm dia) I achieve a bias of 71.65%.

But based on your information given here, maybe I should try the same setup as you? :smile:

PS! Please apologize my bad english. Please also forgive my use of SI-units (1 inch=25.4mm)

[e36 323ti]

I have them all the way around. Check it out.

More info?

[Mendi3]

More info?

Front:
E46 (330i) calipers with vented discs from Bavarian Autosport and mintek pads.

Rear:
Stock calipers with vented discs from Bav Auto and mintek pads. Bav Auto makes the vented discs for the stock 318ti.

[mohaughn]

PS! Please apologize my bad english. Please also forgive my use of SI-units (1 inch=25.4mm)

I would never have known you were not an native english speaker. Your english is pretty good in my opinion...


With bp-10 up front (.42) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 67.16%
With bp-10 up front (.46) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 69.14%

That might explain why I went through a set of rear calipers so quickly. They already had about 15k miles on them when I switched to this brake system. I didn't want to run the stock rear pads so I had them throw in a set of the hawk ceramic pads. So the mismatch in the bias is my fault. But I've not had any issues with the rear wheels locking up before the fronts. In fact, I've not been able to lock the wheels up at all on clean dry asphalt.

You could also look into the stage 3 kit with the 6 pot up front with the wilwood 4 pot in the rear. I think it comes standard with bp10's front and rear. And they seem like nice pads, I've not had any fade with them. I'm running motul brake fluid.

I do have to ask though, do I need to be concerned when I am running the track pads that the coefficient goes up so high once the pads get hot? Will the transfer of bias to the front of the car really be that noticable? My thought was that as long as I have a nice stiff suspension up front the extra bias up front may cause quicker wear on the pads and rotors up front, but the stiff shocks would keep the car from nose diving.

[KIRASIR]

Your rears look like the regular cross-drilled solid disks.

Cross-drilled is not the same as vented.

Front:
E46 (330i) calipers with vented discs from Bavarian Autosport and mintek pads.

Rear:
Stock calipers with vented discs from Bav Auto and mintek pads. Bav Auto makes the vented discs for the stock 318ti.

[KIRASIR]

2) Neither Brembo nor Willwood make bolt on rear brakes for the 'ti (at least to my knowledge based on the contact that I have had with them).



No, but Brembo/willwood calipers can be found relatively cheap on ebay and skillfully combined with custom carriers. ;)

[mohaughn]

Yeah. The photos at bavauto show that they are selling vented rotors, but I don't see how that would be possible. The lateral area of the rotor would be tiny and you would go through them in no time at all. And since those rotors are actually drilled, and not cast with the holes in them I'd be hesitant to run them.. I may end up getting the slotted ones for the rear and call it a day.

[e36 323ti]

You could also look into the stage 3 kit with the 6 pot up front with the wilwood 4 pot in the rear. I think it comes standard with bp10's front and rear. And they seem like nice pads, I've not had any fade with them. I'm running motul brake fluid.


I have now analyzed both the stage 2 & 3 kit. I have realized that maybe a 6 pot caliper would suit me, since I then do not need a spacer on my track wheels (M double spoke 68). It require spacers on my street wheels though. Also it seems like the 6 pot caliper is in one version only when it comes to piston sizes. With stock rear I would then have got 77.3% front bias, which I think is too much. By going for 276x19 vented rear, e36 325 rear caliper (Ø36mm) and master cylinder (Øf/Ør = 23.81/22.2mm) from e46 325 I would have bias 72.3%, which is pretty close to stock.

Regard the stage 3 kit, it is delivered with 385mm rear disk only and 4 pot caliper, at least how I interpret the information. Since the 6 pot caliper is one version only, this leaves no choise but the smallest 4 pot caliper. This gives a bias of 68.4% which I think is a bit too rear biased.


I do have to ask though, do I need to be concerned when I am running the track pads that the coefficient goes up so high once the pads get hot? Will the transfer of bias to the front of the car really be that noticable? My thought was that as long as I have a nice stiff suspension up front the extra bias up front may cause quicker wear on the pads and rotors up front, but the stiff shocks would keep the car from nose diving.

All my views is based on theory, and so far I do not have any real experience. But I see that the theory fit conseptually with what people reports. These guys (http://www.europeancarweb.com/projectcars/0309ec_bmw_325is_brakes_wheels_tires/) swapped the 280x10mm rear solid disk with 276x19mm vented and used the Ø38mm caliper from the e36 328 to move the front bias 2% to the rear on an e36 325. This was done in consultation with StopTech. Their results shows stopping distances of 123ft (37.49m) in average from 60-0 mph. I do not have data for the e36 325i with stock setup, but an e36 320 has a stopping distance of 39.4m and a 328 has 38.2m from 100-0 km/h (62-0 mph) (at least according to: http://www.movit.de/rahmen/stoptbl.htm), so the data is not 100% comparable.

Also StopTech in [1] claims that if the car have correct bias, the pads should be worn out relatively equally front/rear, so your rear pad wear may indicate too much rear bias for your street setup? But that could possibly be due to different pad material as well?

Regard your track pads I used the wrong max. friction coeff. in my previous calculation. The correct should be:

With h-comp. up front (.54) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 72.45%
With h-comp. up front (.64) and Hawk Ceram. rear (.52): Bias 75.71%

Honestly I do not know if approx. 3% increase in front bias is noticeable, maybe only by measurement (but 10 inches later braking a lap, makes almost a car length in a 10 lap race)?

You are ahed of me - you have the opportunity to do real test. I am not going to be in that position until May next year, so until then I am only a theoretician :frown:

It seems although like UUC have selected your caliper to maintain stock bias, and I would have tried to keep it like that by using pads with the same friction coeff front as rear.

[1]: Brake Bias and Performance - Why Brake Balance Matters http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakebiasandperformance.shtml

[e36 323ti]

Update: According to UUC's web pages neither the stage 3 kit nor the 6-pot Wilwood caliper can be delivered to the ti' :frown:

[mohaughn]

Since you are out of country I can call them and find out if they have plans for the stage3 to fit a Ti, or what the deal is with the 6pot not fitting on the front. Or you can just email them, they have been pretty good about getting back to me quickly when I email them with questions.

[e36 323ti]

Since you are out of country I can call them and find out if they have plans for the stage3 to fit a Ti, or what the deal is with the 6pot not fitting on the front. Or you can just email them, they have been pretty good about getting back to me quickly when I email them with questions.

It would have been very much appreciated if you could have given them a call :smile: According to their web site, they do not answer emails. I have emailed them, but I do not expect an answer because of this. Also their email address is hard to find - I have used the emailaddress distributed with their regular mail letters.

When it comes to the 6-pot caliper, I guess the reason why is that the car would then be too front biased.

[pdxmotorhead]

I take care of several race cars with brake systems
similar to the TI and none of them stress the rear
brakes very much.

Our 88 200 SX wears out 3 to 4 sets of front pads to
every set of rear pads. With weight transfer at track
speeds its easy to get to much rear brake. Same with
a old E30 I work on occasionally. We run Hawk Black
or Panther Plus pads. Nothing fancy.

Also in my opinion I don't like the ceramic pads.
I find they have inconsistant feel and havn't
really liked them in any car I've driven with them.

Wilwood and Brembo both publish some data
that implies there is a upper limit to the brake
sizing that you hit based on car weight and tire style.

Good luck!
Dave

[e36 323ti]

Since you are out of country I can call them and find out if they have plans for the stage3 to fit a Ti, or what the deal is with the 6pot not fitting on the front. Or you can just email them, they have been pretty good about getting back to me quickly when I email them with questions.

I have not managed to get in contact with UUC via email :frown:

I was also curious of the dim. of the 325mm rotor. According to their web one can choose between 325mm floating or non-floating rotors, where the floating rotor is an e46 BMW M3 rotor. That makes it 325x28mm (at lesat for an Euro spec M3 according to the ETK).

But what about the non-floating rotor? According to this info. (http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/PBC/weight.htm) the rotor in the example is 325x32mm. Is this a typo or is it the non-floating rotor, which then have to be thicker then the floating M3 rotor?

For me the stage 2 kit starts to sound appealing, specially considering the weight saving. Maybe I should skip the rear vented project and go for a UUC-stage 2 with stock rear :smile:

[e36 323ti]

front-
4 piston forged billet superlite caliper(120-7477)- http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/012-FSL/index.asp
bore size- 1.38" 35.0 mm
disc width- 1.10" 27.9mm

325mm rotor


Another question:
I have got some indications that some people are not happy with the Wilwood calipers. They claim that the caliper flexes under hard braking. As far as I can understand they are talking about the Superlite II and Dynalite calipers. The symptoms is a soft pedal and bad brake modulation. Also there is a suggeted fix for the Superlite II caliper, which I think is implemented in the Forged Billet Superltie caliper (the bolt on the top of the caliper).

Any comments?

[mohaughn]

Another question:
I have got some indications that some people are not happy with the Wilwood calipers. They claim that the caliper flexes under hard braking. As far as I can understand they are talking about the Superlite II and Dynalite calipers. The symptoms is a soft pedal and bad brake modulation. Also there is a suggeted fix for the Superlite II caliper, which I think is implemented in the Forged Billet Superlie caliper (the bolt on the top of the caliper).

Any comments?

I've read the same things. I've not noticed any brake modulation or soft pedal with my setup. The pedal feel is actually almost identical to what it was prior to doing the brake upgrade. If anything the pedal is a little bit stiffer, but I attribute that to fresh brake fluid and the SS lines. I found a corvette site where somebody switched from the superlite II to the forged superlite and liked it much better. I've only been running them for about 4 months so I don't have any long term experience with them yet.

My understanding is that the superlite II caliper is not forged but billeted, and does not have the same type of bracing across the top of the caliper. I don't even think they sell the caliper that people had problems with.

BTW- UUC has been closed. Their website says a truck took out the power to their building so they are closed until they have power.

Is this a typo or is it the non-floating rotor, which then have to be thicker then the floating M3 rotor?

My guess is that it is not a floating rotor, I'm not really sure about the dimensions. The floating e46 rotor they sell is the Euro E46 M3 rotor. This is what I bought with my kit.

e36- Check your PM's. I talked to someone at UUC this morning and got an email address that they will respond to. They said they would be happy to answer any questions you have.

[e36 323ti]

I was also curious of the dim. of the 325mm rotor. According to their web one can choose between 325mm floating or non-floating rotors, where the floating rotor is an e46 BMW M3 rotor. That makes it 325x28mm (at lesat for an Euro spec M3 according to the ETK).

But what about the non-floating rotor? According to this info. (http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/PBC/weight.htm) the rotor in the example is 325x32mm. Is this a typo or is it the non-floating rotor, which then have to be thicker then the floating M3 rotor?



It was a typo. They have corrected it now (should be 325x28mm) :wink:

[mohaughn]

Cool. I'm glad they were able to answer your questions. I think you'd probably be happy with the kit, for the price I don't think there is much out there that is a better value.

[mohaughn]

I was maxed out on the attachment size, just bought site supporter, so here is a wheel/brake shot in my gallery.

http://www.318ti.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=3502&cat=717

[e36 323ti]

.... keep us posted.

I have done some measurements. The 276x19mm disks fit on the 323ti drive flange hub. Also the parking brake have the same diameter. Some adapters are required, since the brake shield and caliper has to be moved 17mm outwards. Also there is different diameter on the brake carriers, so an adapter need to be build.

I guess the amount of work required is like fitting e36 m3 rear brakes on an e30, except I do not need to rebuild the parking brake due to equal diameter on the 323ti and the other e36s .

Here are some links to a guy which have fitted e36 m3 rear brakes on an e30 (he also fitted e36 m3 front brakes).

The adapters: http://www.bmwccn.no/nor/kapittel3/fora/melding.aspx?Id=314886

The rebuild: http://www.bmwccn.no/nor/kapittel3/fora/melding.aspx?Id=330089

[e36 323ti]

Update:

Drawings of adapters finished. Prototypes has been made of wood to see if it would fit and to fine tune measurements. This is doable!

The next step is to have the adapters and spacers machined.

[Mallard]

hehe, sorry to throw a spanner in the works here...


but did everyone forget about the e30?? ;)


325iX rear trailing arm and brakes... check out Realoem.com and thank me after ;)

[Panzer_M]

wouldn't that be four-lug with a e30?

[Mallard]

yeah?.....

:oops:

totally forgot tbh :lol:

[Mallard]

just had a thought..

rear trailing arms with brake carriers and brakes from the 25i.x match up..
the outputshafts and diff already on the e36 as is..
new wheelbearings for the rear arms

and bobs your uncle?

if the rear arms are the same as the e30s, why wouldnt the compact bearings fit in the rear trailing arms?

[e36 323ti]

hehe, sorry to throw a spanner in the works here...


but did everyone forget about the e30?? ;)


325iX rear trailing arm and brakes... check out Realoem.com and thank me after ;)

I guess you mean the e30 325iX touring (258x19mm), since that is the only e30 iX with vented rear disks (at least to my ETK/euro-spec).

The rear caliper dia. on the e30 325ixT is to my knowledge Ø35mm. This will ruin the brake bias in my application.

[316i compact]

Do.we.have.any.news.in.this.project?I.am.also.interested.for.vented.rear.disks!

[e36 323ti]

Do.we.have.any.news.in.this.project?I.am.also.interested.for.vented.rear.disks!

I am going to do it in two steps. The first step is the making of the adapters for the calipers. Then comes the making of the spacers for the brake shield/ emergency brake.

The adapters is now beeing machined. The progress is slow since the guys making it must do it in between their ordinary work. Hopefully the adapters will be ready by the end of this month.

My time frame is that everything should be ready before May this year.

[316i compact]

Thanks.for.the.info.m8.I.just.purchased.rear.trailing.arms.off.a.Z3.1.9.to.convert.to.rear.discs(fro m.drums),and.want.to.convert.to.vented.before.i.put.them.on!

[e36 323ti]

Thanks.for.the.info.m8.I.just.purchased.rear.trailing.arms.off.a.Z3.1.9.to.convert.to.rear.discs(fro m.drums),and.want.to.convert.to.vented.before.i.put.them.on!

Are you sure Z3 1.9 rear trailing arms fit the Compact? According to my knowledge one need to use Z3 M Coupe/ M Roadster rear trailing arms on the Compact.

[316i compact]

They.are.exactly.the.same.part.number.as.the.318ti.for.sure.I.checked.it.at.realoem.many.times!
The.only.different.thing.is.the.rotors.of.the.Z3.which.widden.a.bit.the.rear.track,approx.15mm

[bullmand]

Realoem.com does show that the ti and the 1.9 Z3 use the same trailing arm, but it also shows that they use the same brake rotor, which is not vented. (272X10 mm). So if I'm reading all this correctly, you needed to switch trailing arms to convert to rotors from drums. That makes sense, but you can't go to vented rotors with just that change.

[316i compact]

Ι.bought.the.whole.trailing.arm.assembly,including.the.calipers.and.the.rotors.
Yes,both.Z3and318ti.use.the.same.trailing.arm,and.the.same.rear.subframe.Since.the.trailing.arms.are .the.same.and.the.subframe.too,where.does.the.wider.rear.track.of.the.Z3.comes.from?
I.can.only.think.of.the.rotors.They.maybe.the.same.size,272*10,but.they.are.different.part.number,wh ich.implies.to.me.that.the.wider.track.comes.from.there.Correct.me.if.i.wrong.
As.fas.as.the.vented.are.concerned,i.wanted.to.swap.to.vented.rears.before.i.put.the.trailing.arms.o n,because.it.will.be.easier.work.for.me.

[e36 323ti]

Yesterday I had a visit to the guy which is making the adapters and spacers. By the end of next week the adapters should be ready.:smile:

Then the brake shield spacers has to be made ...

Front I have decided to go for AP Racing 4 pot 330x28mm vaned (CP5200-1019) with Ferodo DS3000 track pads and DS2500 street pads. Same pad-setup rear as well.

[windnsea00]

Funny, I was talking about this with a friend today and just happened to come upon this thread. I personally concluded if I want vented rear, I will search out trailing arms from a MZ3.

In the meantime I'm upgrading to E36 328i calipers in the front with E46 330i rotors. Bimmerworld.com has a special for new E36 Ate calipers for $94 a piece so I figured why not!

However, do I need to buy front carriers? If so do I get the E36 ones (which I would think is the same as the Ti's anyway) or the E46 330i's?

[96cali]

pretty sure you need e46 carriers for e46 discs/calipers.

[windnsea00]

pretty sure you need e46 carriers for e46 discs/calipers.
I will be running E36 328i calipers so AFAIK I don't need the carriers for them, I know many people have upgraded to the E36 calipers for vented rotors and I'm guessing they didn't change their carriers as they are the same dimension?

[BimmerBum]

I will be running E36 328i calipers so AFAIK I don't need the carriers for them, I know many people have upgraded to the E36 calipers for vented rotors and I'm guessing they didn't change their carriers as they are the same dimension?

E36 328 calipers are the same as E46 323/325/328 calpiers... I have no idea what carrier would work to make those calipers work on the E46 330i front rotors. What you would need is a set of rotors from an E46 325/328 (or 323 wagon) and the respective carriers that go with those cars.

[windnsea00]

E36 328 calipers are the same as E46 323/325/328 calpiers... I have no idea what carrier would work to make those calipers work on the E46 330i front rotors. What you would need is a set of rotors from an E46 325/328 (or 323 wagon) and the respective carriers that go with those cars.
The carriers on there now should work fine with the 328i calipers and 330i rotors...I'm going for the larger rotors for better cooling.

[BimmerBum]

The carriers on there now should work fine with the 328i calipers and 330i rotors...I'm going for the larger rotors for better cooling.

Carriers for nonvented rotors will work for only nonvented rotors. So... you are going to need new carriers. If you were running an E46 328 disc you could use that carrier, but with the caliper you have (E36 328 etc) and the E46 330 rotors, I have no idea what you are going to use for a carrier.

[BimmerBum]

I will be running E36 328i calipers so AFAIK I don't need the carriers for them, I know many people have upgraded to the E36 calipers for vented rotors and I'm guessing they didn't change their carriers as they are the same dimension?

The carriers are not the same dimension...

For the E36 328 set up the carriers are wider to provide for the wider vented rotors.

For the E46 328 set up the carriers are wider like the E36 328 set up but they also have to extend out further from their mounting point to provide for the larger diameter rotors.

[e36 323ti]

A prototype of the adapters are made. I am sorry to report that I have found this too risky to finalize. The short version why is that there are several clearance issues together with strengt issues that I found impossible to combine in a safe manner. :frown:

It seems like the only way to go to get vented rear disks, is to go for a Z3M subframe.

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_0139.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_0121.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_0128.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_0132_m.JPG

[e36 323ti]

A post-update:

Up front I have AP-Racing 330x28mm floating disks. With stock 272x10mm rear disks and stock rear caliper, the car was too front biased. Especially on the track with Ferodo DS2.11 pads up front and Ferodo DS2500 rear.

However, by using the callipers from my "vented rear disk"-project together with the carriers for the stock caliper and stock 272x10mm disks, I managed to maintain the same brake bias as stock brakes (when using same pad material front and rear).

Since the caliper from my "vented rear disk"-project is intended for 19mm disk, and the disks used is only 10mm thick, I had to put a "spacer" on the outer pad to compensate for the 9mm difference. The "spacer" I use is simply an old brake pad, where the brake pad material is removed. The "spacer" is 5.5mm thick, which leaves only 3.5mm of the missing 9mm. It should also be doable to put a spacer on the inner pad to compensate for the last mm's, but I do not think it is necessary.

For street use this works very good, but it remains to see how it work on the track...

[e36 323ti]

... and it works very well on the track also with Ferodo DS2.11 up front and DS3000 rear. :smile:

[pdxmotorhead]

Front:
E46 (330i) calipers with vented discs from Bavarian Autosport and mintek pads.

Rear:
Stock calipers with vented discs from Bav Auto and mintek pads. Bav Auto makes the vented discs for the stock 318ti.

It looks to me like you have Drilled not vented rears in the picture?
There shouldn't be any way to make a vented rotor fit in the stock rear caliper it needs to be thicker than the caliper would allow.

Later
Dave

[e36 323ti]

Although the brakes worked very vell bias-wise, I had severe problems with pad deposit from the Ferodo DS2.11. Not even ducting the front brakes helped.

For the next season I will try Performance Friction 01 in all four corners. Until then I have only the good memories...

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/SK%20323ti%20V%e5ler07%20smudged.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/sk%20vaaler%202007%20IMG_3296.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/BMW%20e36%20323ti%20brake%20cooling%201.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/BMW%20e36%20323ti%20brake%20cooling%202.jpg

http://www.bmwccn.no/trondelag/images/Image00038.jpg

Although the ducting did not help on the deposit problem, the Simota air filter did help a lot on the sound!

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/Simota%20IMG_0327.JPG

[mohaughn]

I'm running hawk HT10's on the front and Hawk HP+ on the rear now... The "performance" pads I was using were not holding up well at all once I got a bit more experience with the UUC kit.

[johnnya]

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9129

UUC has their stage 3 brake kit, I have the stage 2, that includes front and rear wilwood calipers and the appropriate hangers and rotors. Althogh, if you are just going with a 330mm front brake kit the rears should be fine with a better brake pad.


Rob Levinson from UUC told me that rear brake caliper will not fit on the ti. What did you had to change to make it work ? MZ3/M Coupe hub and short shaft ???

[mohaughn]

I have the stage 2, not the stage 3. You are correct that the stage3 will not fit our cars without some custom work being done to make it fit...

But I really don't think the Ti needs their stage 3 kit.. Some people will argue that the stage 2 kit is overkill.. But I think the ease of being able to change my front pads to track pads at the track in less than 30 minutes is a major benefit. Not to mention I have a wide variety of places to source E46 M3 rotors, and the track pad for the wilwood calipers are very affordable. Never experienced any type of problem with the kit and my first set of front rotors have lasted over 1.5 years and something like 13 track days. I have some minor surface cracking on the rotors but that is common with high temp track pads. I'm hoping to get another day or two out of them.. Certainly a lot better than people I hear about that cook through a set of brake pads and rotors in a weekend or two.

[thesk8nmidget]

I have the stage 2, not the stage 3. You are correct that the stage3 will not fit our cars without some custom work being done to make it fit...

But I really don't think the Ti needs their stage 3 kit.. Some people will argue that the stage 2 kit is overkill.. But I think the ease of being able to change my front pads to track pads at the track in less than 30 minutes is a major benefit. Not to mention I have a wide variety of places to source E46 M3 rotors, and the track pad for the wilwood calipers are very affordable. Never experienced any type of problem with the kit and my first set of front rotors have lasted over 1.5 years and something like 13 track days. I have some minor surface cracking on the rotors but that is common with high temp track pads. I'm hoping to get another day or two out of them.. Certainly a lot better than people I hear about that cook through a set of brake pads and rotors in a weekend or two.

mayeb those people are to hard on their brakes! sounds like you are driving the right way (with little brake usage)

lol

thats good its lasting for so many days at the track! love that intake too!

[e36 323ti]

Although the brakes worked very vell bias-wise, I had severe problems with pad deposit from the Ferodo DS2.11. Not even ducting the front brakes helped.

For the next season I will try Performance Friction 01 in all four corners. Until then I have only the good memories...


For those interessed:
I have now tried Performance Friction 01 (PFC 01) in all cornes (track only). They really do the job! My brake setup gives perfect bias (given stock bias is perfect), no pad deposit, no fading, and the stopping power is awesome. Late braking really compensate a lot for the lack of power :biggrin:

However, the brake dust combined with water (rain) is impossible to get rid of. Dedicated track rims necessary (but no problem since I run R-compound on very light rims).

Brake spec (track):

Front:
AP-Racing 330x28mm vented vaned floating rotors
Brake ducts
Goodridge steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

Rear
272x10mm stock solid rotors
Calipers from late e36 328i (for 276x19mm vented rotors)
Custom made brake pad spacer
Custom made steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

Fluid:
DOT 5.1 brake fluid

Wheels (track):
OZ Ultralegerra 17x8"
225/45/17 Toyo R888 GG compound

[Massive Lee]

2) Neither Brembo nor Willwood make bolt on rear brakes for the 'ti (at least to my knowledge based on the contact that I have had with them).

Maybe you have missed Massive's specific 310mm x 32mm rear kit for the 318Ti. It uses 2-piece hat and rotors, 4 piston race calipers and even offers an optional handbrake steel drum. That kit has been specifically designed for 318Tis and not just adapted from existing parts.

Differential pistons are stainless steel and 1.12" plus 1.25". This rear kit is a perfect match for front 13" brakes (332mm). Some people have even raced it without any brake bias valve and with the fixed pressure limiter removed as the balance is close to perfect with Massive's front 332mm x 32mm kit.

iFlyTii (Bob Edered) has bought 4 sets for himself and his friends, he could perhaps report on them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/The%20Parts%20Factory/318Ti_310_1.jpg

[e36 323ti]

Maybe you have missed Massive's specific 310mm x 32mm rear kit for the 318Ti. It uses 2-piece hat and rotors, 4 piston race calipers and even offers an optional handbrake steel drum. That kit has been specifically designed for 318Tis and not just adapted from existing parts.

Differential pistons are stainless steel and 1.12" plus 1.25". This rear kit is a perfect match for front 13" brakes (332mm). Some people have even raced it without any brake bias valve and with the fixed pressure limiter removed as the balance is close to perfect with Massive's front 332mm x 32mm kit.

iFlyTii (Bob Edered) has bought 4 sets for himself and his friends, he could perhaps report on them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/The%20Parts%20Factory/318Ti_310_1.jpg

Lee, I have not missed it. I have been in contact with you regarding rear brakes. I need a rear caliper with another piston area than you have in your kit. I would like to maintain stock brake bias. Brake bias valve is not allowed in my country.

According to my calculations* your standard full kit (332mm front and 310mm rear) would make the static brake bias 66.1%. If I use your rear kit with my 330mm AP-Racing up front the static brake bias would become 64.8%. The stock static brake bias on my 323ti (and also on 318ti) is 72.6%. To my taste your kit make the bias too rear biased, especially in my nose-heavy 323ti. In order to maintain stock brake bias I need the 4R/ST caliper with nondifferential bore (piston size 1") to match my AP-Racing calipers. If you could have offered that as an option, then your rear kit would have been of great interest.

Is there really a fixed pressure limiter on any e36 with ABS? If yes, what is the part number?

*In my calculations I assume same pad material front and rear and the use of the stock brake master cylinder.

[Massive Lee]

Hi

All BMWs with rear discs have a pressure limiting valve. It doesn't alter the progression of the pressure, but simply clips the higher peak.

The part number on e30s is #34331152494 and it is a 2" long cylinder connected on the rearward brake line, while the limiter seems it is integral into the ABS on e36s. I will still enquire if Wilwood still offers rear calipers with 1" pistons.

[e36 323ti]

For those interessed:
I have now tried Performance Friction 01 (PFC 01) in all cornes (track only). They really do the job! My brake setup gives perfect bias (given stock bias is perfect), no pad deposit, no fading, and the stopping power is awesome. Late braking really compensate a lot for the lack of power :biggrin:

However, the brake dust combined with water (rain) is impossible to get rid of. Dedicated track rims necessary (but no problem since I run R-compound on very light rims).

Brake spec (track):

Front:
AP-Racing 330x28mm vented vaned floating rotors
Brake ducts
Goodridge steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

Rear
272x10mm stock solid rotors
Calipers from late e36 328i (for 276x19mm vented rotors)
Custom made brake pad spacer
Custom made steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

Fluid:
DOT 5.1 brake fluid

Wheels (track):
OZ Ultralegerra 17x8"
225/45/17 Toyo R888 GG compound

Update:
Rear brake caliper from the e34 m5 3.6 (up til 10/89), which is made for 10mm solid disks and which has 38mm piston diameter, bolts stright onto the ti carrier. Perfect fit! Even the old brake lines can be re-used. No clearance issues, and no need for pad spacers.

I.e. new spec Rear:
272x10mm stock solid rotors
Calipers from e34 m5 3.6,
Goodridge steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

[CG_ACE]

Im glad I just read this page. I have been looking at replacing all 4 rotors and pads and found these on EBAY.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-318Ti-95-99-F-R-Brake-Disc-Rotors-Ceramic-Pads_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ33564QQihZ011QQitemZ320198741235QQtcZp hoto

Are you saying that I cannot replace mine with these because I would have to modify the my braking system? Would I have to change and replace the calipers?

I havent been on the forum in a while and will post pictures with the new wheels and tires after I change(if I can) the brakes and pads.

HAS ANYBODY BOUGHT THESE TYPES OF ROTORS AND PADS ON EBAY? ANY RECOMMENDATIONS OR SUGGESTIONS WILL BE APPRECIATED.

[e36 323ti]

A possible solution to use with the AP-Racing up front, could be to use the bell/hat from Massive (with ebrake-solution) and 298.5mm Willwood disks and the AP-Racing CP5211 caliper (Ø38.1mm).

This would give a static bias of 70.59%.

I hope Lee at Massive reads his mail ... :rolleyes:

[Massive Lee]

I am reading... Calipers with 38mm/1.5" pistons are borderline for front application if they are four pistons units. If using rear calipers with 1.12"-1.25" pistons, the front-to-rear balance on 310mm discs is kept.

Rear 310mm discs can be used with front 310mm, 332mm and 355mm rotors.

The amount of work and development costs for one low volume kit is such that making another kit is most likely not feasable unless an order for 10 sets is agreed on (and paid for).

[Massive Lee]

I am reading... Calipers with 38mm/1.5" pistons are borderline for front application if they are four pistons units. If using rear calipers with 1.12"-1.25" pistons, the front-to-rear balance on 310mm discs is kept.

Rear 310mm discs can be used with front 310mm, 332mm and 355mm rotors.

The amount of work and development costs for one low volume kit is such that making another kit is most likely not feasable unless an order for 10 sets is agreed on (and paid for).

[e36 323ti]

I am reading... Calipers with 38mm/1.5" pistons are borderline for front application if they are four pistons units. If using rear calipers with 1.12"-1.25" pistons, the front-to-rear balance on 310mm discs is kept.

Rear 310mm discs can be used with front 310mm, 332mm and 355mm rotors.

The amount of work and development costs for one low volume kit is such that making another kit is most likely not feasable unless an order for 10 sets is agreed on (and paid for).

Thanks for the quick response, Lee! I guess it is not a feasible solution to use the Massive disks and hat with the AP-Racing then. :frown:

[Massive Lee]

Thanks for the quick response, Lee! I guess it is not a feasible solution to use the Massive disks and hat with the AP-Racing then. :frown:

I have customers in the US and UK who run a 310mm kit with AP Racing and Performance Friction calipers.

Here's an e36 310mm kit with PF calipers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/The%20Parts%20Factory/IMG_3025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/The%20Parts%20Factory/IMG_3026.jpg

[e36 323ti]

In another thread it was suggested to use the 320x22mm rear disks from an X3 3.0i. It was claimed that these disks had the provided depth (80mm). A quick look at the ETK shows that all x3’s have 320x22 wented rear disks. I did a measurement on a Euro X3 2.0d, and the disk was only approximately 60mm deep…

I know about several peoples that have used the 300x22mm wented rear disks from the Euro e90 320d as an upgrade for their e30 m3’s. The depth on these disks is 66.1mm, and could maybe be used on our ti’s, which has 78mm depth?

Using these disks with AP-Racing 330x28mm up front, and the AP-Racing caliper CP5211 in the rear, we get the following bias (original 323ti-bias is 72.62%):

CP5211 Ø38.1mm => 70.48%
CP5211 Ø36mm => 72.79

However, “spacers” for moving the e-brake shoes and brake shield is needed (approx. 10mm).

[ianik]

I mailed several times Lee about the rear hats for my conversion, but sadly it was too much for me ( mostly because of shipping and customs ).

I'ms really surprised that you only found 60mm height on X3 rotors.

Look carrefully below.... To me the X3 rotors are really the most adequate to do this conversion.

323ti rotor:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1182/323ti.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/my.php?image=323ti.jpg)

Real height: 72.0 + 6.15 = 78.15

X3 rotor:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1026/61981897.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/my.php?image=61981897.jpg)

Real height: 61.0 + 7.1 + 11.5 = 80.6

Especially look at the hat with the small lip to accomodate brake shoes a the right height towards the shield.

320d E90:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8623/320d.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/my.php?image=320d.jpg)

Real height : 60 + 6.2 = 66.2

I'm just wiating next month to buy X3 rotors and Speedster calipers.

[e36 323ti]

I mailed several times Lee about the rear hats for my conversion, but sadly it was too much for me ( mostly because of shipping and customs ).

I'ms really surprised that you only found 60mm height on X3 rotors.

Look carrefully below.... To me the X3 rotors are really the most adequate to do this conversion.

323ti rotor:
Real height: 72.0 + 6.15 = 78.15

X3 rotor:
Real height: 61.0 + 7.1 + 11.5 = 80.6

320d E90:
Real height : 60 + 6.2 = 66.2

I'm just wiating next month to buy X3 rotors and Speedster calipers.

You are perfectly right, ianik. I did only do an outside approx. measurement of the X3. I was not aware of the lip for the brake shoes. Have you thought of how to adopt the brake shoes?

However, I would like to thank you very much for putting me in the direction of searching the Brembo-site for exact data. I did a quick reserach, and an alternative to the X3 320x22 disks could be the rear disks for the Z4 3.0 (294x19mm). The depth of those are 74.5mm, which means that our e-brake only needs to be adjusted appox. 3.5mm. Further, the 323ti e-brake shoes does not need to be altered. Also the Z4-disks are lighter (6.5kg for the Z4 compared to 8kg for the X3's).
Again the CP5211 could be used (< Ø306mm disks). I guess also the CP5316 as well.

The bias then becomes:
CP5211/CP5316 Ø38.1mm => 70.59%
CP5211 Ø36mm => 73.19%

The reason why I am not totally convinced that the X3-disks are the right way to go, is that I do not feel comfortable by the bias (69.1%). I would like to stay as close as possible to the stock bias, espesially on the ti. I also like to use the same pad-compound front and rear. Espesially at the track, where I use Performance Friction 01 (PFC 01), which has an eye-ball popping attitude. Also since I am so pleased with the PFC's, another issue is that PFC does not give any data on the coefficient of friction for their pads (at least they did not do it last year...), so which pad to choose to alter the bias towards the stock bias would be a trial and error process.

What do you think, ianik?

[ianik]

The Z4 rotor seems to be interesting and more adequate for the Speedster caliper.

I don't know if it's possible to adjust the position of brake shoes though...

Do you have a pic of the rear assembly without rotor ?

Here is a picture of the actual shoes.

http://www.oscaro.com/media/BMP/zoom/101/10285.jpg

Perhaps we could use the old shoes, cut the outside, just keeping the center and make a sort of spacer with this.

[ianik]

Just bought that.

http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/26/3c/1026_1.JPG

I have to know wich rotor ( Z4 or X3 ) now...

[e36 323ti]

The Z4 rotor seems to be interesting and more adequate for the Speedster caliper.

I don't know if it's possible to adjust the position of brake shoes though...

Do you have a pic of the rear assembly without rotor ?

Perhaps we could use the old shoes, cut the outside, just keeping the center and make a sort of spacer with this.

I am not sure I see the solution of the brake shoe mods as clear as you...

I imagine it is much easier to use the Z4-disk, since it only require a small offset adjust.

Here is some pictures:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_9762_rez.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_9766_rez.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_9779_rez.jpg

[e36 323ti]

Just bought that.

http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/26/3c/1026_1.JPG

I have to know wich rotor ( Z4 or X3 ) now...

Lucky you...

Do you know about some more used ones?

[ianik]

Ok. In fact the shoes are aproximatively 20mm wide... So if you put the Z4 rotor as this, you'll have 15mm of the shoe in the rotor..

Not so bad..

There are some Speedster calipers on ebay ( search for VX220 calipers as it's his name there (Vauxhall VX220).

You can also search for Lotus Elise calipers ( be careful there are not all the same ) and they wiil be engraved Lotus, not AP racing like on Speedster's.

[ianik]

I think i have a good new.

The brake shoes on Z4 are 20mm wide.

The brake shoes en 323ti are 25mm wide.

Do you see it ? :smile:

It looks fine.

[e36 323ti]

Ok. In fact the shoes are aproximatively 20mm wide... So if you put the Z4 rotor as this, you'll have 15mm of the shoe in the rotor..

Not so bad..

There are some Speedster calipers on ebay ( search for VX220 calipers as it's his name there (Vauxhall VX220).

You can also search for Lotus Elise calipers ( be careful there are not all the same ) and they wiil be engraved Lotus, not AP racing like on Speedster's.

Hard to find any vx220 calipers :frown:

It also seems like the Lotus Elise caliper is an AP-Racing CP5111, which have Ø36mm pistons. See: http://www.eliseparts.com/products.php?product=589

[e36 323ti]

I think i have a good new.

The brake shoes on Z4 are 20mm wide.

The brake shoes en 323ti are 25mm wide.

Do you see it ? :smile:

It looks fine.

I am not sure that I see it... :redface:

If I understand you right, the 323ti brake shoe will partly be outside the bell with the 323ti brake shield in the stock position?

Maybe the Z4 route also requires the Z4 brake shoe + adjusting the 323ti brake shield 4.65mm outwards. I guess the Z4 brake shoe will fit the 323ti...

[ianik]

I was thinking that as the brake shoe is 5mm larger on 323ti, the 4,65 gap isn't a problem and the bell on the Z4 rotor would be fully used.

Another solution would be to offset the complete brake shield, using some sort of spacers and longer bolts.

[e36 323ti]

I was thinking that as the brake shoe is 5mm larger on 323ti, the 4,65 gap isn't a problem and the bell on the Z4 rotor would be fully used.

Another solution would be to offset the complete brake shield, using some sort of spacers and longer bolts.

What about wear of the brake shoe when a portion of it is partly outside the bell?

I think it is fairly easy to offset the brake shield...

[ianik]

Almost no wear as it's just a parking brake...

I was editing, the last post... about offseting the whole brake shield/

[e36 323ti]

Almost no wear as it's just a parking brake...

I was editing, the last post... about offseting the whole brake shield/

I guess I will try the Z4 route. Have to see if I can get hold of some used vx220/Speedster calipers, or alternatively buy some brand new cp5211.

Then the issue is to design the brackets for the calipers...

[ianik]

left hand side

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VX220-Brake-caliper-left-hand-side_W0QQitemZ270277081177QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item270277081177&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

right hand side

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VX220-Brake-caliper-right-hand-side_W0QQitemZ270277081168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item270277081168&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Again, a full set:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOTUS-ELISE-AP-RACING-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS_W0QQitemZ140321828144QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item14032182 8144&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

[e36 323ti]

left hand side

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VX220-Brake-caliper-left-hand-side_W0QQitemZ270277081177QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item270277081177&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

right hand side

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VX220-Brake-caliper-right-hand-side_W0QQitemZ270277081168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item270277081168&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Again, a full set:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LOTUS-ELISE-AP-RACING-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS_W0QQitemZ140321828144QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item14032182 8144&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1683|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Thanks!

This Lotus Elise (S1?) caliper is a CP5111 caliper with Ø36mm piston. I would like to have Ø38mm.

Is there a CP-number on your vx220 calipers?

[ianik]

I really don't know.

I will tell you as soon as they are at home.

[ianik]

I just found that front Speedster calipers have 44mm pistons.

Is it still ok ?

I hope so as I already bought them.

The front are 2x41 + 2x38

For reference, an 3,2L M3 has 60mm front + 40mm rear.

I don't know how to compare vs 2x41+2x38 front and 2x44 rear.

edit: In fact it seems perfectly fine.

[e36 323ti]

I just found that front Speedster calipers have 44mm pistons.

Is it still ok ?

I hope so as I already bought them.

The front are 2x41 + 2x38

For reference, an 3,2L M3 has 60mm front + 40mm rear.

I don't know how to compare vs 2x41+2x38 front and 2x44 rear.

edit: In fact it seems perfectly fine.

44mm? Are you sure? Is there a CP-number on the calipers?

Our AP-Racing calipers have an equvivalent piston diameter of 2x56.13mm.

I think Ø44mm is all to big. The bias, assuming Z4-disks, is going to be 64.63%. I am pretty sure that is going to be way to much rear bias on a 323ti, almost 8% more to the rear than stock.

I do not have the disk data for the m3 3.2l, but according to my data the m3 3.0l has piston sizes f/r of Ø60mm/Ø39mm, disks f/r 315mm/312mm and a bias of 70.5%. If we assume the 3.2l has the same disk as the 3.0l, then the 3.2l has a bias of 69.4%, assuming Ø40mm rear piston.

[ianik]

Ap racing number CP5111.

[e36 323ti]

Ap racing number CP5111.

According to this link (http://www.eliseparts.com/products.php?product=589) the CP5111 has piston diameter of Ø36mm. If you study the pictures you will see that CP5111 is engraved on the calipers. Either the text in the link is wrong, or 44mm is wrong.

I think we have to give AP-Racing a call...

[ianik]

It says :"They have a Twin 36mm Pistons which is a perfect combination with either the 44mm OE front Calipers or our EP Tuning 4 Pot Brake Calipers."

They are Ap racing 6111 on this link, and the text assumes that OEM front ones (aka CP5111) are 44mm.


So I'm ****ed up with my calipers. :mad:

Edit: Otherwise, they fit the CP5111 44mm calipers on the rear of Speedsters with 4 pots fronts.... This is just what we are doing... How could it be good on a Speedster and not on our 323ti's ?

There is probably something that I don't see..

[e36 323ti]

It says :"They have a Twin 36mm Pistons which is a perfect combination with either the 44mm OE front Calipers or our EP Tuning 4 Pot Brake Calipers."

They are Ap racing 6111 on this link, and the text assumes that OEM front ones (aka CP5111) are 44mm.


So I'm ****ed up with my calipers. :mad:

Edit: Otherwise, they fit the CP5111 44mm calipers on the rear of Speedsters with 4 pots fronts.... This is just what we are doing... How could it be good on a Speedster and not on our 323ti's ?

There is probably something that I don't see..

I can see I have to get my new glasses... You are right, the picture shows a CP6111. Then it make sence...
I am also sure that I read someplace that the cp6111 was for solid disks...

I am pretty sure we cant use the CP5111. If it had had piston daim. Ø38.1mm or Ø36mm, then it would have been ok. Ø44mm gives just too much rear bias. :frown:

In order to calculate the bias one need to see it in relation to the master cylinder diameters, disk diameters, piston diameters and pad coefficient of friction, both front and rear.

My PC, where I have the bias program and brake data, just crashed (bad display card), so I have to come back later on to show you the equations. In the mean time you might want to look up some of the background material from StopTech's pages.

[ianik]

The program doesn't include the pad area ?

[e36 323ti]

The program doesn't include the pad area ?

I have developed "The program" myselves. You can easily set it up in a spread sheet.

If we look at the physics, why, in your opinion, should we include the pad area (http://www.driverstechnologyassociation.co.uk/brake-pad-area.htm) ?

[ianik]

I'm ok for the brake pad pressure, I was just thinking that the friction was more important if the pad area was larger.
:wink:

I found that many BMW in the late 70's, beginning 80's, were set up with 4x40mm front calipers and 2x40mm rear calipers.

Does it seems fine for us to use this rear calipers ? They are cheap as hell, even refurbished. They are made for a 272x19 rotor.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3063/etrier.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=etrier.jpg)

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/755/etrier2.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=etrier2.jpg)

I also found another one, from Mercedes, rear, 2 pistons, 2x40mm.

I now have to sell my speedster calipers as soon as I received them. :rolleyes:

[e36 323ti]

I'm ok for the brake pad pressure, I was just thinking that the friction was more important if the pad area was larger.
:wink:

I found that many BMW in the late 70's, beginning 80's, were set up with 4x40mm front calipers and 2x40mm rear calipers.

Does it seems fine for us to use this rear calipers ? They are cheap as hell, even refurbished. They are made for a 272x19 rotor.

I also found another one, from Mercedes, rear, 2 pistons, 2x40mm.

I now have to sell my speedster calipers as soon as I received them. :rolleyes:

To make a long story short: the pad area is not into the equation of brake bias calculation (nor should it). It is the pad's coefficient of friction that matters. When you choose a caliper, the pad area is fixed. We have to choose a caliper that has a pad area that suits the disks we are going to use.

E.g. the pad size of the CP5211 is a perfect match for the Z4-disks... :wink:

Further, I think that Ø40mm piston size is too big, leading to too much rear bias).

What is your motivation for having wented rear disks?

[ianik]

What is your motivation for having wented rear disks?

Ok for pad area.

I wasn't looking especially for a vented set up, it was more a way to balance the braking.

I'm switching for a 3,0L engine so want to perfect my brakes. However I tracked it a dozen times with my AP's and seen no problems.

I thought 40mm was ok as it's just the rear M3 set up.

[e36 323ti]

Ok for pad area.

I wasn't looking especially for a vented set up, it was more a way to balance the braking.

I'm switching for a 3,0L engine so want to perfect my brakes. However I tracked it a dozen times with my AP's and seen no problems.

I thought 40mm was ok as it's just the rear M3 set up.

If balance is the only goal, then I would recommend the use of the e34 m5 3.6 rear calipers used on your stock 272x10mm solid disks. They have Ø38mm piston. With your AP-Racing up front you get very close to stock bias.

I found the AP-Racing with the stock 323ti rear caliper (piston Ø34mm) to be too front biased. I do not remember the exact numbers, but it felt much more balanced with 38mm pistons rear calipers. I had H&R springs, Bilstein B12 dampers and AC-Schnitzer sway bars.

The 323ti is a bit nose heavy, and do not have 50/50% weight balance as the rest of the e36 range. The e36 m3's is close to 50/50% weight balance, and my guess is that the more weight balanced the car is, the more rear biased one can make it. Also the technology of the rear suspension is more modern on the other e36's, which I imagine makes it possible to go for a more rear biased brake setup.

If your 3.0l-conversions is an s50b30 with complete gear box, you add approx. +100kg to your car, where +50kg is the engine only. I would be careful with too much rear bias. But I may be wrong...

[ianik]

Ok, in summary I just have to switch with rear M5 caliper. :tongue:

I'm not going with M50B30 engine, too heavy.

I bought a M54B30 crank and rods, and 'm going to put them together with a set of CP pistons ( 11,5 compression ratio ) in my M52. I'm just doing a slight overbore ( + 0,25 ).

With the M50 manifold, and others it will do the job.

[e36 323ti]

Ok, in summary I just have to switch with rear M5 caliper. :tongue:

I'm not going with M50B30 engine, too heavy.

I bought a M54B30 crank and rods, and 'm going to put them together with a set of CP pistons ( 11,5 compression ratio ) in my M52. I'm just doing a slight overbore ( + 0,25 ).

With the M50 manifold, and others it will do the job.

Seem like we are considering the same projects :smile:

What do you do about the Nikasil issues regarding the M52-block? Or, are you one of those lucky ones without an M52 with Nikasil?

[ianik]

Seem like we are considering the same projects :smile:

What do you do about the Nikasil issues regarding the M52-block? Or, are you one of those lucky ones without an M52 with Nikasil?

I have a post march 98 M52 ( April 99 ) so aluminum with steel liners. No Nikasil.

[e36 323ti]

I have a post march 98 M52 ( April 99 ) so aluminum with steel liners. No Nikasil.

Mine is produced June '98. How do you identify that the block does not have the Nikasil?

[ianik]

There is a metal support bracket under the inlet manifold/throttle body area, near the gearbox / starter.

Alusil block

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID4349882/fileID202192399/Alusil%20Block%20small.JPG


Nikasil black has no bracket, just a small hole in aluminum.

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID4349910/fileID202193192/Nikasil.jpg

Give me , by private message if you want , your last 7 characters of your serial and I could tell you.

Being a June 98, it would be an Alusil block like mine.

[e36 323ti]

There is a metal support bracket under the inlet manifold/throttle body area, near the gearbox / starter.

Alusil block

Nikasil black has no bracket, just a small hole in aluminum.


Give me , by private message if you want , your last 7 characters of your serial and I could tell you.

Being a June 98, it would be an Alusil block like mine.

Thanks, ianik :smile:

You have PM.

[ianik]

Your car is a July 98, it was a transition time, so the two engines were fitted. You have to check on your engine.

Just in case, I just found that a Z3M has 60mm front and 40mm rear calipers, and pretty much same weight distribution as our Compact's.

[e36 323ti]

Your car is a July 98, it was a transition time, so the two engines were fitted. You have to check on your engine.

Just in case, I just found that a Z3M has 60mm front and 40mm rear calipers, and pretty much same weight distribution as our Compact's.

... dont't forget the diameter of the mastercylinder and disks :cool:

Are you sure the Z3M has 40mm? I considered this caliper, and a friend meassured on his Z3M. His number was 39.1mm. I was not able to find exact data, so I assumed it was the same configuration as the e36 m3 3.0 (60mm front and 39mm rear and 315/312mm disks (f/r)). But maybe you have access to another data base than I?

Based on my data the Z3M has the same bias as the e36 m3 3.0, i.e. 70.5%.

Again, using our AP-Racing up front (eff. Ø56mm), 294mm Z4-disk and the CP5211 (Ø38.1mm) rear, we get a bias of 70.9% - pretty close to the Z4M and e36 3.0.

I have got my backup-computer up and running, and if I haven't done it all to wrong my calculations are as follows:

I calculate the static bias by the following formula (you can derive it by looking at the brake system as a hydraulic system).

The nomenclature is:
F = front
R = rear

uPad = coefficient of friction for the pad (typ. 0.3-0.6).
dmc = diameter master cylinder [mm]
dcal = piston diameter caliper [mm]
dbd = diameter brake disk

Bias=F.uPad*(F.dcal/F.dmc)^2*F.dbd/(F.uPad*(F.dcal/F.dmc)^2*F.dbd + R.uPad*(R.dcal/R.dmc)^2*R.dbd)*100;

Actually the brake disk diameter (dbd) should be based on the effective radius (approx up till the middle of the brake pad), but lack of data and a quick check has shown that the numbers are good enough for practical use by using the full disk diameter.

You also see that if we use the same pad front and rear, the coeff. of friction falls out of the equation.

[ianik]

Ok, it's much more complexed that I thought.

I'm looking in Mercedes rear calipers.

Report back if I find something suitable.
:tongue:

[ianik]

I found an affordable twin pot caliper from Mercedes, 2x35mm.

Hope it's good ( with X3 or Z4 rotor ).

[e36 323ti]

I found an affordable twin pot caliper from Mercedes, 2x35mm.

Hope it's good ( with X3 or Z4 rotor ).

With Z4 rotor - in my opinion too much front biased (74.3%).
With X3 rotor - same as stock bias (72.62%), but how is it with the pad area? Is the pad too small?

[ianik]

It seems not bad with the X3 rotor.

The pad (only material, not the full pad) is 62x59mm.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5107/fdb644.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fdb644.jpg)

The caliper, twin pot, 35mm. It takes a 22mm wide rotor.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4451/bhn108.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bhn108.jpg)

[e36 323ti]

It seems not bad with the X3 rotor.

The pad (only material, not the full pad) is 62x59mm.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5107/fdb644.jpg (http://img39.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fdb644.jpg)

The caliper, twin pot, 35mm. It takes a 22mm wide rotor.


As far as I can understand the maximum pad-"depth" (pad material only) on the Z4 disk is 45mm and on the X3 disk 53mm...

[e36 323ti]

Z4 3.0i disks ordered...:cool:

I'll wait till I have tried them on the 'ti before ordering calipers.

[ianik]

Ok. So you are planning CP5111 ?

[e36 323ti]

Ok. So you are planning CP5111 ?

No, we can't use the CP5111.

I am planning for the CP5211 with piston Ø38.1mm.

[ianik]

Ah sorry..

I misread before.

Ok for 5211

[e36 323ti]

An update might be appropriate...?

I test mounted the Z4 disks today.
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%206%20rez.JPG

The ti'disk to the left and the z4 disk to the right...

Some pictures of the mounted disk:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%201%20rez.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%202%20rez.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%204%20rez.jpg

At the moment I am really optimistic, and it seems like this can be something to work further on. The ti's e-brake shoes, as we have calculated earlier on, was approx. 3-4 mm on the outside the of the disk. Also the brake shields has to be shaved a bit. To make it a 100% perfect build (i.e. all of the e-brake shoe inside the bell and proper sized brake shield) we might have to use the e-brake shoes and brake shield from the Z4 as well and put some washers on the Z4 brake shield to obtain a proper offset.

The distance from the mounting holes on the A-arm to the Z4 disk surface is 35mm, which I believe should be enough room to host a custom made mounting bracket for the CP5211 calipers.

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%203%20rez.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/332ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disk%205%20rez.jpg

However, before ordering the CP5211 I am going to see if my old e36 323i cab calipers (piston size Ø38mm) can be fitted...

[chrisbec]

Wow, so this thread has been running since October '06 and I still don't see a straight forward solution. :eek: I have a pair of Z3 trailing arms that I'm thinking about installing on my '95 ti for one reason only, it appears that they are more readily upgradeable than the ti brakes. Take a look at the upgrade kit available for the Z3 rear brakes (Bavarian Autosport Performance Brake Kit - Rear)

http://www.bavauto.com/assets/imglib500/bas_brakekit.jpg

Does anyone have an idea what equivalent parts are being used that make up this kit? I guess these could be M3 or ZM rear rotors (both same PN), not sure the diameter looks a bit smaller from the picture (the rear M rotors are 312x20mm and the stock Z3/ti rotor size is 272x10mm). Guess it is possible that they could have taken a larger diameter rotor and reduced the OD by turning it down by 20mm on a lathe. Does anyone know which calipers would just line up with the Z3 carriers and the M rotors (if that is what these are)? From the discription these are OEM BMW calipers, but I wonder what the application these are? My guess would be M3/ZM rear calipers with reduced OD rotors. Any ideas?

[ianik]

It seems almost straight fitment.

I think that with the brake shoe ( for parking only ) will work properly fitted like this ( 25mm on the TI vs 20mm on the Z4, so with 3mm sticking out it seems fine).

I 'm still stuck with the wrong calipers that I bought but found 2 piston calipers with 38mm pistons.

I will purchase the Z4 rotors tonight.

Let us know what is involved with yours 323i calipers. :cool:

[e36 323ti]

Let us know what is involved with yours 323i calipers. :cool:

The 323i cab calipers is the calipers which I intended to use as described in the beginning of this (long) thread... :redface:

[bmvw]

What are the advantages conferred by slotted rotors. The brakes on the ti are damn good as it is.

[e36 323ti]

What are the advantages conferred by slotted rotors. The brakes on the ti are damn good as it is.

I think the discussion regarding slotted/non-slotted (and/or cross-drilled) deserve another thread. We are seaking a transformation from solid rear disk to vented rear disk. Slotted disks are not the same as vented disks...

I did not find my stock ti disks on my 323ti to match my requirements when participating on track day events. Maybe they are working better on the lighter 318ti...

[e36 323ti]

Wow, so this thread has been running since October '06 and I still don't see a straight forward solution. :eek: I have a pair of Z3 trailing arms that I'm thinking about installing on my '95 ti for one reason only, it appears that they are more readily upgradeable than the ti brakes. Take a look at the upgrade kit available for the Z3 rear brakes (Bavarian Autosport Performance Brake Kit - Rear)

http://www.bavauto.com/assets/imglib500/bas_brakekit.jpg

Does anyone have an idea what equivalent parts are being used that make up this kit? I guess these could be M3 or ZM rear rotors (both same PN), not sure the diameter looks a bit smaller from the picture (the rear M rotors are 312x20mm and the stock Z3/ti rotor size is 272x10mm). Guess it is possible that they could have taken a larger diameter rotor and reduced the OD by turning it down by 20mm on a lathe. Does anyone know which calipers would just line up with the Z3 carriers and the M rotors (if that is what these are)? From the discription these are OEM BMW calipers, but I wonder what the application these are? My guess would be M3/ZM rear calipers with reduced OD rotors. Any ideas?

I would also like to know. I have sent them a mail...

[tiFreak]

the bavauto kit uses stock calipers, I don't think that it would have the M calipers unless it's for the Z3M

[e36 323ti]

Take a look at the upgrade kit available for the Z3 rear brakes (Bavarian Autosport Performance Brake Kit - Rear)

http://www.bavauto.com/assets/imglib500/bas_brakekit.jpg

Does anyone have an idea what equivalent parts are being used that make up this kit?

According to the info given to me by Bavarian Autosport the z3 rear kit uses the same rotors and calipers as stock. Their rear rotors are however slotted and drilled, but no vented rotors... :frown: As I see it, the picture connected to the z3 rear kit must be seen as an illustration.

The project continues... :cool:

[chrisbec]

Thanks for the info on the Bavauto rotors. The picture they use is a little misleading.

Any updates for us?

I have an idea about how to correct the offset with the rotor to the e-brake shoes. What about switching the drive flange hub to that of a Z4? It should fit since the rear wheel bearing is the same for the ti and the Z4.

[chrisbec]

Interesting link for serious e30 upgrades including rear brakes I wanted to share with you guys. This is a German website, but there are excellent pictures. The work shown on this website is inspiring! :cool:

http://300mm.de/index.htm

[chrisbec]

Update:
Rear brake caliper from the e34 m5 3.6 (up til 10/89), which is made for 10mm solid disks and which has 38mm piston diameter, bolts stright onto the ti carrier. Perfect fit! Even the old brake lines can be re-used. No clearance issues, and no need for pad spacers.

I.e. new spec Rear:
272x10mm stock solid rotors
Calipers from e34 m5 3.6,
Goodridge steel braided hoses
PFC 01 pads

The rear brake calipers from the 1988–1992 e32 (735i) shares the same application as the e30 M3. These calipers have larger 38mm pistons and slide directly on to the ti carrier guide pins. Like the e34 M5 calipers the 735i (and possibly other e32's not sure) used 10mm thick solid rear disks. I bought a set of calipers on ebay for $36 and although they looked weathered, the pistons and bores were in pristine condition, no corrosion on the pistons at all. Also they fit good and it is a super easy cheap upgrade if you've already modified your front brakes! I just wanted to mention this since the e34 m5 3.6L specific calipers may be hard to find whereas the 735i's are probably a little easier to locate in the salvage yards :wink:. In the attached photo's the e32 caliper/piston is on the left and the stock ti caliper is on the right.

[e36 323ti]

The rear brake calipers from the 1988–1992 e32 (735i) shares the same application as the e30 M3. These calipers have larger 38mm pistons and slide directly on to the ti carrier guide pins. Like the e34 M5 calipers the 735i (and possibly other e32's not sure) used 10mm thick solid rear disks. I bought a set of calipers on ebay for $36 and although they looked weathered, the pistons and bores were in pristine condition, no corrosion on the pistons at all. Also they fit good and it is a super easy cheap upgrade if you've already modified your front brakes! I just wanted to mention this since the e34 m5 3.6L specific calipers may be hard to find whereas the 735i's are probably a little easier to locate in the salvage yards :wink:. In the attached photo's the e32 caliper/piston is on the left and the stock ti caliper is on the right.

It sounds a bit more impressive saying that the calipers are from the e34 m5 3.6, doesn't it? :cool:

Other cars that uses the same calipers is (note Europe versions):

Usage (source http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/34211160381/ )

5' E34:
518i (M40)
518i (M43)
520i (M20)
520i (M50)
524td (M21)
525i (M20)
525i (M50)
525ix (M50)
525td (M51)
525tds (M51)
530i (M30)
530i (M60)
535i (M30)
M5 3.6 (S38)


7' E32:
730i (M30)
730i (M60)
730iL (M60)

[e36 323ti]

Any updates for us?

I have an idea about how to correct the offset with the rotor to the e-brake shoes. What about switching the drive flange hub to that of a Z4? It should fit since the rear wheel bearing is the same for the ti and the Z4.

I am about to order Z4 brake shields and e-brake shoes (same as for non-ti e36 and e46) to see if they could fit and/or if the offset by that could be corrected.

Another option than the Z4-discs could be to simply modify a standard 'ti rear disc and fit e.g. an AP-Racing brake disc to it. Got the idea from this guy (http://www.lotusomega.no/brakes.shtml) which did it on a Lotus Omega.

http://www.lotusomega.no/img/rearadapter-2.jpg

It seems like the AP-Racing range of eg. 290mm, 295mm (CP3047) or the 300mm bolted discs will fit over the 171.3mm bell of the 'ti.

[diamondnik]

the possibility of using the e32 caliper is tempting, and according to some math it is what i need to balance out my 330ci front brakes.

BUT, i noticed 3 different part numbers for this e32 rear caliper.

the 735i which is same as e30 M3 is 34211160353
the one that is same as euro 7xx and 5xx is 34211160381
and the ones i saw on ebay that are only 735i/il are 34211155491

i'm scratching my head on this one... also i wonder if the 730/735 rear disc (300x10mm) would fit the ti rear hub?

[chrisbec]

the possibility of using the e32 caliper is tempting, and according to some math it is what i need to balance out my 330ci front brakes.

BUT, i noticed 3 different part numbers for this e32 rear caliper.

the 735i which is same as e30 M3 is 34211160353
the one that is same as euro 7xx and 5xx is 34211160381
and the ones i saw on ebay that are only 735i/il are 34211155491

i'm scratching my head on this one... also i wonder if the 730/735 rear disc (300x10mm) would fit the ti rear hub?

If you trust RealOEM/bmw (which I do ~ 99%) then the ...353 &...491 are parts of the same assembly. The 353 number is for the complete caliper assembly (carrier, caliper housing and clip). The ...491 number is for the caliper housing only, which is a sub assembly of the ...353 number.
I'm not sure about the ...381 number, RealOEM doesn't recognize this part number.
You only need the ...491 caliper housing and use it with the carrier that is on your ti. This caliper will slide right onto the ti carrier guide pins.

[minicoop900]

well i just found something interesting too, look at the repair kit for the piston and what its used on, m5,535,325,m3,850....

the list goes on, so does that mean that all those calipers could be the same? they would all have the same piston design and id imagine the same shapes, but i noticed on the m cars, they have the m stamp on the calipers, and there were different manufacturers which would mean different part numbers.ate/brembo/whoever

so could it be that all of those calipers bolt right up?

[diamondnik]

it seems that all those calipers use the same 38mm piston. however the 354 & 491 are for 12mm thick disc and 381 is for 10mm thick disc. i wonder if they would make one caliper 2mm wider. also, it does appear that 354 replaces 491 number, which means that e30 m3 and e32 735 (not 730) use same calipers (but not same diameter discs and carriers).

[e36 323ti]

i'm scratching my head on this one... also i wonder if the 730/735 rear disc (300x10mm) would fit the ti rear hub?

Are you sure the e32 735i discs are 300x10? To me it seems like they are 300x12 . Se e.g. http://static.bmwfans.info/images/epc/NDUzMl9w.png (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E32/Sedan/USA/735i-M30/LHD/M/browse/brakes/rear_wheel_brake_brake_pad_sensor/)
Rear wheel brake-brake pad sensor (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E32/Sedan/USA/735i-M30/LHD/M/browse/brakes/rear_wheel_brake_brake_pad_sensor/) - BMW parts catalog (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/)

[diamondnik]

see my last post: the 381 disc as fitted to 730 and 5xx is 300x10 according to real oem

[e36 323ti]

The AP Racing CP5211 (-22S0 and -23S0) calipers are ordered. Also a set of Z4 3.0i brake shields and brake shoes are ordered. :smile:

Had to take a decision (and a risk of failing) since the CP5211 calipers seems to be discontinued by AP Racing. By very good help from AP Racing, a dealer in the UK that had some CP5211s in stock was identified. Hopefully a solution is around the corner...

[e36 323ti]

see my last post: the 381 disc as fitted to 730 and 5xx is 300x10 according to real oem

I do not know what you are after, but if you seek a slightly bigger solid disk for the Compact, maybe the 280x10mm disc from the z4 2.0i/2.5i is an option. The bell on those are 75.2mm while for the Compact it is 78mm...

[e36 323ti]

Calipers received. I am optimistic.... :smile:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1490_rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1494_rez.JPG

The design of the carriers started...

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/Design.jpg

[chrisbec]

Beautiful calipers! That looks nice...

[ianik]

Very nice progress...

I'm stuck doing this mod right now....

[chrisbec]

Very nice progress...

I'm stuck doing this mod right now....

Just curious about what you are going to do with the bake shield and bearings. Are you going to shim the Z4 brake shields to get them closer to the rotors? Are you going to pull the hub flange out to change out the brake shield?
I'm also working toward getting the Z4 rotors installed on some Z3 trailing arms. I have the Z4 brake shields and I'm considering using e36 M3 calipers since I'm using M3 calipers in the front. I think the thickness for spacer would be the difference in height between the Z4 rotor and the ti rotor (Z3 rotor in my case).

I have an idea about how to correct the offset with the rotor to the e-brake shoes. What about switching the drive flange hub to that of a Z4? It should fit since the rear wheel bearing is the same for the ti and the Z4.

Just for posterity sake I wanted to clarify this a little. The 323ti and the Z3 2.8L (more generally the 6 cylinder Z3's) have the same wheel bearing as the Z4.

[e36 323ti]

Just curious about what you are going to do with the bake shield and bearings. Are you going to shim the Z4 brake shields to get them closer to the rotors? Are you going to pull the hub flange out to change out the brake shield?
I'm also working toward getting the Z4 rotors installed on some Z3 trailing arms. I have the Z4 brake shields and I'm considering using e36 M3 calipers since I'm using M3 calipers in the front. I think the thickness for spacer would be the difference in height between the Z4 rotor and the ti rotor (Z3 rotor in my case).


I have a spare set of ti brake shields and a set of Z4 brake shields and is able to compare them... It seems like the Z4 brake shields cannot be used as is, since the Z4 calipers or the Z4 e-brake shoes is mounted 90 degrees offset from the 323ti application. An option is to do a cut, rotate and weld of centre of the Z4 shields in order to have the e-brake shoes properly aligned as required by the 323ti. An alternativ to the pullout of the hub flange, I think it could be arranged such that the pull out is not necessary by do a proper opening in the Z4 shields. Further, the ti brake shield also has some arrangments for the attachment of the brake pipe and brake linings which is missing on the Z4 brake shields.

I guess a first option is to do an offset of the original 323ti shields and the necessary modifications (cut or straighten the edge).


Just for posterity sake I wanted to clarify this a little. The 323ti and the Z3 2.8L (more generally the 6 cylinder Z3's) have the same wheel bearing as the Z4.

The wheel bearings may be the same, but to my knowledge the only trailing arm that can be used from the Z3's on the Compact is the one from the Z3 Ms. The trailing arms from the the other Z3s used on the ti makes the wheel go outside the panel due to wrong wheel base. Further, both the 323ti trailing arms and the Z3 M's trailing arms are strengthen compared to the other Compacts and Z3s trailing arms. But maybe I do not understand what your point is?

[chrisbec]

The wheel bearings may be the same, but to my knowledge the only trailing arm that can be used from the Z3's on the Compact is the one from the Z3 Ms. The trailing arms from the the other Z3s used on the ti makes the wheel go outside the panel due to wrong wheel base. Further, both the 323ti trailing arms and the Z3 M's trailing arms are strengthen compared to the other Compacts and Z3s trailing arms. But maybe I do not understand what your point is?


Only wanted to clarify a somewhat vague statement I made earlier for the record.

I'm using these trailing arms to do the necessary modifications to get everything lined up while they are sitting on my work bench. This way I don't have to take my car off the road while I figure out this mod out. Once I get things worked out I'll either just install these trailing arms or (worst case if they won't fit) transfer the hardware over to the ti arms.

The reason I can see the that the Z3 arms will work on the ti:
- The Z3 1.8\1.9 subframe is interchangeable with the ti (same part numbers for those members, P/N 33321091151 trailing arms and P/N 33311090957 rear axle carrier).
- The same Z3 rear axle carrier that is used on the ti (P/N 33311090957) is used in all Z3 models 1.8 to the 3.0i.
Therefore, unless the body of the 6 cylinder Z3 is different than the 4 cylinder, (which it could be, but I don't think it is) the Z3 arms should fit the ti no problem.

The 6 cylinder Z3 arms are strengthened a little since they have some additional bracing that the 4 cylinder ti doesn't have as well as larger rear wheel bearings (just like the 323ti).

[mohaughn]

Can you get weight differences for the various parts when you actually go to swap everything out? Having vented rear rotors would be the best thing for my application, but the stiffer control arms will also help.

Also, Chris, I'm in Orlando, so if you do get this worked out, I wouldn't mind checking it out.

[chrisbec]

Can you get weight differences for the various parts when you actually go to swap everything out? Having vented rear rotors would be the best thing for my application, but the stiffer control arms will also help.

Also, Chris, I'm in Orlando, so if you do get this worked out, I wouldn't mind checking it out.

Sweet, another ti guy in Orlando! :cool: Yea, lets meet up when this is done.

I'll post pictures when I get this thing together. Hopefully e36 323ti won't mind another build on his thread too since he has done a hell of a lot more work on this mod than I have and I'm just kinda riding on his coat-tails. We can compare notes on how this goes together.

[e36 323ti]

Only wanted to clarify a somewhat vague statement I made earlier for the record.

I'm using these trailing arms to do the necessary modifications to get everything lined up while they are sitting on my work bench. This way I don't have to take my car off the road while I figure out this mod out. Once I get things worked out I'll either just install these trailing arms or (worst case if they won't fit) transfer the hardware over to the ti arms.

The reason I can see the that the Z3 arms will work on the ti:
- The Z3 1.8\1.9 subframe is interchangeable with the ti (same part numbers for those members, P/N 33321091151 trailing arms and P/N 33311090957 rear axle carrier).
- The same Z3 rear axle carrier that is used on the ti (P/N 33311090957) is used in all Z3 models 1.8 to the 3.0i.
Therefore, unless the body of the 6 cylinder Z3 is different than the 4 cylinder, (which it could be, but I don't think it is) the Z3 arms should fit the ti no problem.

The 6 cylinder Z3 arms are strengthened a little since they have some additional bracing that the 4 cylinder ti doesn't have as well as larger rear wheel bearings (just like the 323ti).

I guess you are right in that the stuff from the z3 1.8/1.9 fit the ti (318ti). My mind is towards the 323ti. Please have my appologies...
To my knowledge the 6-cylinder z3 has a different wheel base than the 4-cylinders and the rear body is wider. The 4 cylinder whel base front/rear is 1411 / 1427 mm. The 6 cylinder wheel base f/r is 1423 / 1494 mm. So it is still my gues that the rear trailing arms from the 6-cylinder z3 do not fit the 318ti (nor the 323ti)- that is - they will fit the rear axle carrier (since the carrier is the same) but gives wrong wheelbase. However I may be wrong, and is looking forward to see your final results...

[e36 323ti]

Sweet, another ti guy in Orlando! :cool: Yea, lets meet up when this is done.

I'll post pictures when I get this thing together. Hopefully e36 323ti won't mind another build on his thread too since he has done a hell of a lot more work on this mod than I have and I'm just kinda riding on his coat-tails. We can compare notes on how this goes together.

I do not mind. Let's keep this thread alive... :smile:

[e36 323ti]

Only wanted to clarify a somewhat vague statement I made earlier for the record.

I'm using these trailing arms to do the necessary modifications to get everything lined up while they are sitting on my work bench. This way I don't have to take my car off the road while I figure out this mod out. Once I get things worked out I'll either just install these trailing arms or (worst case if they won't fit) transfer the hardware over to the ti arms.

The reason I can see the that the Z3 arms will work on the ti:
- The Z3 1.8\1.9 subframe is interchangeable with the ti (same part numbers for those members, P/N 33321091151 trailing arms and P/N 33311090957 rear axle carrier).
- The same Z3 rear axle carrier that is used on the ti (P/N 33311090957) is used in all Z3 models 1.8 to the 3.0i.
Therefore, unless the body of the 6 cylinder Z3 is different than the 4 cylinder, (which it could be, but I don't think it is) the Z3 arms should fit the ti no problem.

The 6 cylinder Z3 arms are strengthened a little since they have some additional bracing that the 4 cylinder ti doesn't have as well as larger rear wheel bearings (just like the 323ti).

Based on experiences from another guy that did a complete rebuild of his e30, the trailing arms from the 4 cylinder Z3, Z3M and Compact can be used on an e30 without altering the geometry. The trailing arms from the 6 cylinder Z3 is approx 50-60mm wider and can't be used on the e30, due to erronous geometry (he learned it the hard way...). In my understanding this means that the trailing arms from the 6 cylinder Z3 can't be used on the 'ti.

[Bluebimma]

Using stock ti spindles, ive found that E46 330i rear brakes can be used but require custom shoes. *shrugs*

[chrisbec]

Using stock ti spindles, ive found that E46 330i rear brakes can be used but require custom shoes. *shrugs*

Interesting... Do you have any pics of this set-up that you came up with?
What are you using for caliper carriers? Are you using 330i rotors and calipers too?

[Bluebimma]

Im replicating it from a job an e30 guy did.

Everything is OEM 330i rear, calipers, carrier, rotors, pads. The carriers bolted up, required a slight milling of the upper hole of the carrier, disc on, caliper and pads on, shoes were off by a few MMs. To do the shoes, he just used the ti brackets, removed the abrasive side of the ti shoe, then welded the 330 shoes to the ti shoe/bracket. Bolted right in.

[e36 323ti]

Im replicating it from a job an e30 guy did.

Everything is OEM 330i rear, calipers, carrier, rotors, pads. The carriers bolted up, required a slight milling of the upper hole of the carrier, disc on, caliper and pads on, shoes were off by a few MMs. To do the shoes, he just used the ti brackets, removed the abrasive side of the ti shoe, then welded the 330 shoes to the ti shoe/bracket. Bolted right in.

The overall height of the 320x22mm 330i rear disc is 60.5mm. This is equal to the height of the 276x19mm e36 328i discs unsuccessfully tried fitted in the very beginning of this thread. The overall height of the rear ti'-disc is 78.1mm. I.e. that the ti's brake shield and shoe has to be moved 17.6mm outwards in order to align properly using the 330i rear disc. In my experience, the use of carriers from other BMW's used on the ti requires making an adapter. If there is pictures of this 330i application, it would have been very much appreciated.

Another issue is the brake bias since the piston diameter of the 330i rear caliper is 42mm.

[e36 323ti]

Did some tests today to get some more ideas of how to design the carrier:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1538_rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1539_rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1541_rez.JPG

Now I am really optimistic. :smile:

[e36 323ti]

Some ideas are tested. To be sure that the carrier can keep up with the load and stress, the design is fed into a FEM-tool where stress and load simulations are done.

The load was determined by analyzing and modeling the complete brake system.

Here is an image of the first iteration of the carrier design:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CP5211CarrierFEMSafetySimAlu61xx.JPG

I am feeling very lucky to have knowledgeable friends that are willing to help doing the FEM analysis.

This is fun...

[tiFreak]

nice, gettin' high-tech now :biggrin:

[Bluebimma]

Post 12-15.

http://forum.4ngiefest.com/showthread.php?t=113

[e36 323ti]

Post 12-15.

http://forum.4ngiefest.com/showthread.php?t=113

Nice....

It is hard to tell from the pictures (his post 14), but it seems to me that there is a substantial rebuild of the brake shoe attachments. Also, by comparing the picture at his post 14 with the pictures on page 7 post 93 in this (my) brake thread, it is clear that there is a substantial difference in offset between the stock 'ti and the rebuilt e30. This is as expected, and is easily seen by comparing the brake disk data. It is of course doable, but I am not convinced that it is plug and play on the 'ti ...

... not to forget the issue regarding the brake bias since the piston diameter of the 330i rear caliper is 42mm.

[chrisbec]

Post 12-15.

http://forum.4ngiefest.com/showthread.php?t=113

I like what he did with the e-brake shoes, that was creative...
He says in post 10 up front that he is using Z3 suspension (I'm assuming that includes trailing arms also).
Now I'm not sure how he got the 330 rotors to just fit up like that, I think there is some information that he doesn't include there. Without researching, I would think that there was an offset difference between the drum on the z3 rotors and that of the 330i rotors. He is probably not using the Z3 hub flanges since they have the same offset (or height) as the ti flanges.
My guess is that his trailing arms are a hybrid using the Z3 arms\bearings and hub flanges out of an e36 sedan or coupe. I say this since the offset of the coupe or sedan (from the pictures) looks similar offset to the 330 with the same lug pattern.
He also doesn't say exactly what he did to the caliper carrier either.

http://images42.fotki.com/v1435/photos/4/43029/6220944/066-vi.jpg

I'm not 100% why he just ground down the one ear of the carrier like that. He is probably using a spacer\adapter in there of some sort.

[diamondnik]

these guys do all sorts of big brake kits, including for 318ti and z3, albeit at a high cost. also they use willwood calipers, which are not my fave.

http://www.massivebrakes.com/home/

[Bluebimma]

You guys must have just skimmed over the pics rather than actually reading. He posts what he did to get the rear to fit.

Tomorrow I start the big break kit.. 330i front and rear breaks on my E30. I have the Z3 2.8 5lug swap under the car. I pulled the z3 hubs and wheel bearings from the rear and replaced them with e36 325i hubs and bearings. this will allow for the correct offset from my wheels and for the brakes to work properly...

[diamondnik]

Thing about those hubs is that the TI uses smaller bearings, where as e30, e36 and e46 (except the big engine ones) use same bigger bearings, so the hub is interchangeable (between the e30 and other models, as in the case of the guy swapping 330 rears). But will the larger diameter hub fit over the smaller TI bearing? Or do you have to swap the rear bearing as well as axle to be able to install the shorter hub?

[chrisbec]

You guys must have just skimmed over the pics rather than actually reading. He posts what he did to get the rear to fit.

Yea, I was in a hurry, you busted me ;)

But I'll give myself a pat on the back, I was right on the money :biggrin:

Since you've read every word of the post and are so smart, do you know why he ground that the ear of the caliper carrier like that???:tongue:

[e36 323ti]

Some more design and FEM analysis done. Because of space limitations/slim design considerations, I have decided to make the carrier in Titanium, making it very strong and reasonably light (285 gram each compared to the stock carrier weight of 618gram each).

A 3D sketch:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_II_3D.JPG

Results from the FEM simulation in order to verify the strength of the design:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_II_FEM.JPG

A sketch of the design:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_II_Draw.JPG

Feeling very lucky having a knowledgeable friend which is willing to help out with the FEM simulation and optimization of the design...

[e36 323ti]

Did a wood-"rapid prototype" today based on the drawings. Have to do some minor adjustments before the carrier is produced in metal.

Based on new knowledge regarding BMW master cylinder (MC) piston diameters - the stock ti master cylinder has different bore fore front and rear - a new analysis of the bias is done:

Stock bias e36 323ti : 66.24%
Current bias : 66.42%
Rebuild bias : 64.45%
Rebuild bias w. m3 MC: 61.43%
E36 M3 3.0 stock bias: 60.82%

[pdxmotorhead]

So your saying the bias is basically 60/40.... Cool.

Dave

[e36 323ti]

Had to adjust the design:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_3D.JPG

Also the strength is increased. The safety factor is now above 10 (2x5):

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_FEM_Stress.JPG

The weight of each carrier (Titanium) is about 350 gram, i.e. close to half the weight of the original carrier.

[e36 323ti]

Did a "rapid prototype" based on the new design to double check dimensions and clearance issues...

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_RapidProto_1.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_RapidProto_2.JPG

Next step is to make a prototype in aluminium before the final "production"... :smile:

[chrisbec]

Man that is looking sweet! I don't think that you are going to have any strength issues with the caliper bracket. Looks like that is plenty of meat there. I would venture to say that one made from aluminum would have more than enough strength...

[e36 323ti]

I would venture to say that one made from aluminum would have more than enough strength...

You may be right, but it also depends on which aluminum that is used. We have done strength analysis using a 6000-series (do not remember the exact one) of aluminum, and I did not take the chance of using it given this particular design.

E.g. the 6061 alloy has tensile strength of 310 MPa.

Using aircraft aluminum (the term aircraft aluminium or aerospace aluminium usually refers to 7075) is another option. The 7075-O grade has a tensile strength of 276 MPa. The 7075-T6 has a tensile strength of 510 - 538 MPa.

The Titanium planned to use here (Grade 5) has a tensile strength of 1000 MPa.

Better safe than sorry... :redface:

[e36 323ti]

1th iteration of the aluminium prototype carrier ready for test fit :biggrin:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1639_rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1640_rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1647_rez.JPG

[e36 323ti]

Braided hoses with banjo bolt ready. The Titanium bolt, which are going to be reworked to carriers, acquired...:smile:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_1717_rez.JPG

[logie74]

Has anyone had any luck with fitting vented Z4 rear rotors?

[e36 323ti]

Has anyone had any luck with fitting vented Z4 rear rotors?

The Z4 rotors do fit. There are also some alternatives popping up these days. www.300mm.de seems to have developed some nice alternatives for vented rear brakes for the Compact (see http://www.300mm.de/301mm/301mm.htm). One solution is to use their 'carrier' which makes it possible to combine the Z4 rotors with some alternative BMW calipers (see "294x19mm Bremsanlage für E36 Compact Hinterachse").

http://www.300mm.de/301mm/04k.jpg

[e36 323ti]

I did finally find the time to test the alu. prototype on the car. It seems to fit perfectly :biggrin:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/323ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disc%20IMG_2111%20rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/323ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disc%20IMG_2117%20rez.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/323ti%20w%20z4%20294x19mm%20disc%20IMG_2120%20rez.JPG


Now the carrier in Titanium has to be made...

[diamondnik]

Regarding the Z4 adapters sold on 300mm.de: Babelfish is not a perfect translation so I'm not sure if they said that the rotors need extensive modification? As far as I can see those Z4 rotors fit better than the 120d ones for their big rotor conversion.

[chrisbec]

I did finally find the time to test the alu. prototype on the car. It seems to fit perfectly :biggrin:

...

Now the carrier in Titanium has to be made...

Nice work!

[e36 323ti]

The Titanium is handed over to my friend for machining the carriers.
Brake pads, Performance Friction 01 to match the front track day pads arrived today.
For the street Ferodo DS2500 pads is going to be used. :smile:

[e36 323ti]

The Titanium bolt has started its journey towards carriers. 2800g is on its way to become 2x350g :smile:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/DSC00209_rez_prod_titan.JPG

[e36 323ti]

There were some issues finding the right tool for the machining of the Titanum bolt. However, the right tool (milling cutters) has now been found, and the preparation could continue... :smile:

Preparation of Titanium requires different knowledge than making it in Aluminium or steel. Done wrong, the Titanium metal shaving could burn.

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/TitaniumPrepPicture0033.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/TitaniumPrepPicture0034.jpg

[e36 323ti]

The preparation continues:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/TitaniumPrepPicture0037.jpg

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/TitaniumPrepPicture0038.jpg

The two Titanium carriers together with the Aluminium prototype (to the right).

[diamondnik]

I made an accidental discovery today. I bought what I thought were e36 m3 rear calipers to be used with adapters from 300mm.de. However, what I got were e46 m3 calipers 328/20 with 42mm piston (even though the piston measures 41mm). I noticed today that these carriers bolt on to the Ti axle (exact bolt spacing). Also, the sliding pins have the same spacing as Ti units. This means that e46 m3 rear calipers bolt onto Ti rear axle, and potentially you can install those calipers with Ti sliders, or any combination thereof. The only thing I've been unable to check so far is how far out these go, because they might not work, even with a 294 rotor diameter.

[e36 323ti]

I made an accidental discovery today. I bought what I thought were e36 m3 rear calipers to be used with adapters from 300mm.de. However, what I got were e46 m3 calipers 328/20 with 42mm piston (even though the piston measures 41mm). I noticed today that these carriers bolt on to the Ti axle (exact bolt spacing). Also, the sliding pins have the same spacing as Ti units. This means that e46 m3 rear calipers bolt onto Ti rear axle, and potentially you can install those calipers with Ti sliders, or any combination thereof. The only thing I've been unable to check so far is how far out these go, because they might not work, even with a 294 rotor diameter.

Interesting findings! If I do remember it right the bell on the e46 m3 disc has the same depth as e.g. the e36's. I.e. there is going to be a struggle for finding discs, or one has to make an adapter. Please let us know when you have checked how far out they go. The bias is another issue which has to be checked as well.

However, if there is a disc which can be used with the carrier, probably there will be other calipers that fit the e46 carrier.

[diamondnik]

I need to rephrase my finding: the sliders that fit e46 m3 are e34 leftovers from 38mm calipers I put on my back. The sliders on the e34 and 318ti have same spacing, so the 318ti and e46 m3 have same spacing as well (in other words the e36 m3 caliper will slide on to the 318ti sliders), but I didn't have a chance to verify if bolt pattern is same. Winter is upon us, and I won't be touching the brakes till spring when I reinstall big brakes up front.

This is interesting about m3 caliper sliders because they are different from other e46 caliper slider spacing

The idea here would be to pair up these calipers with 300/20 mm rotors if possible, or Z4 .

[pdxmotorhead]

YOu could always use wilwood modular rotors, order the dia and the tophat to get correct clearances...?

Hmm

Dave

[chrisbec]

I need to rephrase my finding: the sliders that fit e46 m3 are e34 leftovers from 38mm calipers I put on my back. The sliders on the e34 and 318ti have same spacing, so the 318ti and e46 m3 have same spacing as well (in other words the e36 m3 caliper will slide on to the 318ti sliders), but I didn't have a chance to verify if bolt pattern is same. Winter is upon us, and I won't be touching the brakes till spring when I reinstall big brakes up front.

This is interesting about m3 caliper sliders because they are different from other e46 caliper slider spacing

The idea here would be to pair up these calipers with 300/20 mm rotors if possible, or Z4 .

Just to be clear on what is being said here... The 2 pins that the caliper slide on are part of the caliper carrier. The caliper carrier is what bolts to the trailing arm.
So having said that, the calipers from the M46 M3 will fit on the ti caliper carriers (slider pin spacing is the same). However it is uncertain if the e46 M3 caliper carrier will bolt to the ti trailing arms. Right???

[diamondnik]

Right Chrisbec.

[e36 323ti]

One step closer:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/dsc000224_rez.jpg

Some more work done on the carriers. What remains now is some shaving and making the threads for the bolts.
Titanium is a challenging material when it comes to machining. A challenge know is to see whether or not the thread
tool will be jammed and brake. If it brakes, all the work will be for nothing :redface:

[e36 323ti]

The threads for the bolts are made. :biggrin:
Just some shaving left, and the brakes can be mounted :smile:
I am really looking forward to finalize this project and test the brakes...

[chrisbec]

I need to rephrase my finding: the sliders that fit e46 m3 are e34 leftovers from 38mm calipers I put on my back. The sliders on the e34 and 318ti have same spacing, so the 318ti and e46 m3 have same spacing as well (in other words the e36 m3 caliper will slide on to the 318ti sliders), but I didn't have a chance to verify if bolt pattern is same. Winter is upon us, and I won't be touching the brakes till spring when I reinstall big brakes up front.

This is interesting about m3 caliper sliders because they are different from other e46 caliper slider spacing

The idea here would be to pair up these calipers with 300/20 mm rotors if possible, or Z4 .

The bolt spacing on the e46 M3 caliper carrier is wider than the e36/5&7 (see attached photo). But the guide pin spacing is the same...

[diamondnik]

So this would suggest that 318ti sliding pins are dimensionally same as e34 (since I have e34 calipers on Ti sliders), the e34 sliding pins are same as e46, which are same as e36. This means that any of these calipers will slide on all of these sliding pins/sliders. Therefore, could install any of these calipers on the 318ti sliders (even though the e46m3 caliper is too wide for Ti rotor).

318Ti - 34mm piston
e36 - 36mm piston
e34 - 38mm piston

All of these would work with standard Ti rotor thickness.

[diamondnik]

Chrisbc, what is that silver brake combo? Same as mine: e34 38mm caliper on Ti slider?

[chrisbec]

So this would suggest that 318ti sliding pins are dimensionally same as e34 (since I have e34 calipers on Ti sliders), the e34 sliding pins are same as e46, which are same as e36. This means that any of these calipers will slide on all of these sliding pins/sliders. Therefore, could install any of these calipers on the 318ti sliders (even though the e46m3 caliper is too wide for Ti rotor).

318Ti - 34mm piston
e36 - 36mm piston
e34 - 38mm piston

All of these would work with standard Ti rotor thickness.

True, but I think the e36 verts came with vented rear rotors (I think)...
I've heard of making a spacer (backing plate from an old set of pads) to use calipers from vented rotor on non vented disks... IIRC e36 323ti has done that somewhere in this thread..

Chrisbc, what is that silver brake combo? Same as mine: e34 38mm caliper on Ti slider?

Yup.

[e36 323ti]

The carriers are finalized :biggrin:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/Carrier%20Finalized%20Titanium%20IMG_2261.JPG

Looking forward to mount the new brakes...

[pdxmotorhead]

Does the rear caliper split in half? Could always machine off the difference and bolt it back together...

Dave

True, but I think the e36 verts came with vented rear rotors (I think)...
I've heard of making a spacer (backing plate from an old set of pads) to use calipers from vented rotor on non vented disks... IIRC e36 323ti has done that somewhere in this thread..



Yup.

[e36 323ti]

I've heard of making a spacer (backing plate from an old set of pads) to use calipers from vented rotor on non vented disks... IIRC e36 323ti has done that somewhere in this thread..

Yup.

Thats right: http://www.318ti.org/forum/showpost.php?p=130037&postcount=69

... and I do not recommend it!

[e36 323ti]

Had to adjust the design:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_3D.JPG

Also the strength is increased. The safety factor is now above 10 (2x5):

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/CarrierProt_III_FEM_Stress.JPG

The weight of each carrier (Titanium) is about 350 gram, i.e. close to half the weight of the original carrier.

The weight of the finalized carrier shows 348g :biggrin:
I really love it when theory fits with practice! :cool:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/Carrier%20Finalized%20Titanium%20Weight.JPG

I think it should be possible to decrease the weight even a few grams more, but I imagine it is not worthwhile.... :rolleyes:

[chrisbec]

That is beautiful product. Some lightening holes would be sweet, but like you say unnecessary.

[e36 323ti]

For those interested...

Not much happening. With temperatures below -10 degree C in the garage, it is too cold to do anything :frown:

However, in the waiting time for higher temperatures there are plenty of fun activities to do outside in the area around here http://vimeo.com/19972686 :smile:
(http://vimeo.com/19972686)

[Marv17]

that stuff looks intense. flying down a mountain like that, wish i had that kind of skill.

btw, congrats on finishing up the project. can't wait til you install and use it to report back to us.

one question: doesn't the 1998/99 ti's have vented rear discs?

[cooljess76]

one question: doesn't the 1998/99 ti's have vented rear discs?only vented fronts:wink:

[pdxmotorhead]

If you don't need the rear vented disks ,, they are dead weight. BAD unsprung weight.
On the other hand if your passing 140 on the straights, they are a good thing... :biggrin:

Just my 2 cents..

Dave

[e36 323ti]

If you don't need the rear vented disks ,, they are dead weight. BAD unsprung weight.
On the other hand if your passing 140 on the straights, they are a good thing... :biggrin:

Just my 2 cents..

Dave

A quick check of the weight shows that my vented rear configuration is 1.2kg lighter pr. wheel than the stock configuration. That is 2.4 kg saved in total. I.e. the unsprung weight is reduced.

However the vented disc are heavier than the solid one, resulting in increased rotational mass... :wink:

Good for handling, bad for acceleration/deceleration...

[Junk]

Retardation! I never heard that term for braking before :)

[e36 323ti]

Retardation! I never heard that term for braking before :)

Sorry for my bad english...

[vsonix]

My 'ti: http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/photo_e36_323ti.htm

I've never seen wood style interior in a ti before... didn't think I'd like it, but actually... it's really cool!

[zoner]

Sorry for my bad english...

Technically, there was nothing wrong with it- 'Retardation' is an apt description, just not commonly used (at least, in the US). Maybe it's like calling a Trunk a 'Boot', or a Glove Box a 'Cubby Box', or a Hood a 'Bonnet' :wink:

[e36 323ti]

I've never seen wood style interior in a ti before... didn't think I'd like it, but actually... it's really cool!

That's my previous 323ti, which is now in the BMW heaven :frown:

[pdxmotorhead]

:) I used to take care of a road race car that had two legal street options(for its race class), one was all vented and the other solid, without the lightweight bits the vented stuff was like 10 lbs per wheel heavier, the car needed the vented brakes for races, but for getting the time for position I'd put the solid rotors and calipers on, the car was like 5 seconds faster with the solid rotors (Rotating mass I suspect) but could only do about 5 laps.... Usually that was enough...

Your setup is looking pretty good... Enjoying watching it develop..

Dave

A quick check of the weight shows that my vented rear configuration is 1.2kg lighter pr. wheel than the stock configuration. That is 2.4 kg saved in total. I.e. the unsprung weight is reduced.

However the vented disc are heavier than the solid one, resulting in increased rotational mass... :wink:

Good for handling, bad for acceleration/deceleration...

[e36 323ti]

:) I used to take care of a road race car that had two legal street options(for its race class), one was all vented and the other solid, without the lightweight bits the vented stuff was like 10 lbs per wheel heavier, the car needed the vented brakes for races, but for getting the time for position I'd put the solid rotors and calipers on, the car was like 5 seconds faster with the solid rotors (Rotating mass I suspect) but could only do about 5 laps.... Usually that was enough...

Your setup is looking pretty good... Enjoying watching it develop..

Dave

To be specific each vented rotor is only 2.22kg (4.9lbs) heavier than the solid one. If rotational mass should be a problem, going for lighter rims would be an option (saving 4-5kg/wheel). However, I am only participating at track days at club events, typically 10-15 min heats, ~300km pr. day, 2-3 days each event, no competition. You are in another league than me.

Further, it might be that getting rid of the sliding rear calipers results in firmer and more accurate pedal feel, which inspire to later braking and hence outweigh the drawback of increased rotational mass...

... not to forget that I am enjoying doing this project, combining theory and practice. :smile:

[cooljess76]

:) I used to take care of a road race car that had two legal street options(for its race class), one was all vented and the other solid, without the lightweight bits the vented stuff was like 10 lbs per wheel heavier, the car needed the vented brakes for races, but for getting the time for position I'd put the solid rotors and calipers on, the car was like 5 seconds faster with the solid rotors (Rotating mass I suspect) but could only do about 5 laps.... Usually that was enough...

Your setup is looking pretty good... Enjoying watching it develop..

DaveDang Dave! Talk about knowing the car's abilities and reaping the benefits, that's awesome! 5sec is huge, especially when you multiply times each lap:eek:

[e36 323ti]

A quick check of the weight shows that my vented rear configuration is 1.2kg lighter pr. wheel than the stock configuration. That is 2.4 kg saved in total. I.e. the unsprung weight is reduced.

However the vented disc are heavier than the solid one, resulting in increased rotational mass... :wink:

Good for handling, bad for acceleration/deceleration...

:redface: Have to correct myself ...
A more detailed check of the weight shows that my vented rear configuration is 1kg (2.2lbs) heavier pr. wheel than the stock configuration. That is 2 kg in addition on the rear axle.

However, I am using the e34 m5 rear caliper with my front BBK to maintain bias. Compared to this setup my rebuild is 700g heavier pr. wheel...

Further, comparing my BBK with stock shows that in total my custom BBK is 3.5kg lighter than the stock 323ti/318ti configuration. The front BBK is approx. 2.8kg pr. wheel lighter than the stock 323ti brakes.

[pdxmotorhead]

That's still pretty good, especially for a street(Able) car.

I'm going to try and get some pics of my latest project up its far from done, but its cool, hopefully the owner will have some $$ soon to finish it off... Merkur Xr4ti with a Esslinger and a new turbo and ems... Hopefully have it on the track and dyno by spring...

Dave

[e36 323ti]

:) I used to take care of a road race car that had two legal street options(for its race class), one was all vented and the other solid, without the lightweight bits the vented stuff was like 10 lbs per wheel heavier, the car needed the vented brakes for races, but for getting the time for position I'd put the solid rotors and calipers on, the car was like 5 seconds faster with the solid rotors (Rotating mass I suspect) but could only do about 5 laps.... Usually that was enough...

Your setup is looking pretty good... Enjoying watching it develop..

Dave

Have put some of my thoughts into a new thread: http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=32902

[e36 323ti]

Found some time to do a test mount of the titanium carriers...

Maybe no surprise that they fit :biggrin:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2502_test_mount_titanium_I.JPG

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2503_test_mount_titanium_II.JPG

The complete kit as it appears today:
AP Racing CP5211 calipers
Titanium carriers (custom made)
294x19mm vented discs from the Z4 3.0i
Braided hoses (custom made)
Ferodo DS2500 street pads
PFC 01 Track Pads

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2508_Complete_kit_I.JPG

The total weight pr. side is 8.8kg compared to stock rear weight of 7.8kg or 8.2kg if using stock rear with calipers from e34 m5 3.6.

The bias, using AP Racing w. 330x28mm discs up front, is slightly moved rearwards. Stock bias is 66.59% and my configuration ends on 64.68%.

What remains now is to paint the Titanium carriers to make it stealth, prepare the left hand side brake shield and mount the complete kit.

[tiFreak]

nice, that looks really good on there, not sure if it's been brought up already but have you considered producing and selling those custom adapters? I'm guessing that kit is probably too expensive for a majority of the forum but it would be cool having some kind of bolt on option for those that can afford it

[e36 323ti]

nice, that looks really good on there, not sure if it's been brought up already but have you considered producing and selling those custom adapters? I'm guessing that kit is probably too expensive for a majority of the forum but it would be cool having some kind of bolt on option for those that can afford it

The calipers and discs are actually not expensive at all - at least in my country. One AP-Racing caliper is below half the price of a new OEM rear caliper. The discs can be sourced from any BMW dealer. The braided hoses are relatively cheap.

The Titanium carriers is another issue. I would have to established cooperation with a workshop that is able to produce these. To what costs, I do not know.

I also guess the market is relatively small...

So the answer is that I have not considered producing the carriers or make any kit.

[pdxmotorhead]

TI is great cool factor,,, but for ease of manufacture, and availability of material I'd go with a good steel and call it done. Maybe work with one of the outfits like Rogue and do a co-liscense deal?

Be a good E30 product as well I'd assume...

Dave

[e36 323ti]

The car is finally ready for accepting the new brakes and the Titanium carriers are painted for a stealth look :biggrin:

Here is how the complete rear kit appears:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2521_rez_II.JPG

The complete kit:
AP Racing CP5211 calipers
Titanium carriers (custom made)
294x19mm vented discs from the Z4 3.0i
Hand brake shoes from the Z4 3.0i
Braided hoses (custom made by Earl's Performance Products UK Ltd)
Ferodo DS2500 street pads
PFC 01 Track Pads

[e36 323ti]

Started the mount, but was not able to split the brake pipe and brake hose on one side. Had to order new brake pipe and proper tools for brake pipe bending.

I also realized that there is 6 rubber brake hoses on the ti. Had to order a set of two extra braided hoses to get a complete braided hose setup.

The installation shall soon be ready for a test run...

[Jean H.318TI]

so this setup on the rear works with the stock TI control arms?

[e36 323ti]

so this setup on the rear works with the stock TI control arms?

Yes it does :smile:

[Jean H.318TI]

how much is the whole kit?

[e36 323ti]

The ti-control arms ready:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2566_rez.JPG

The Titanium carrier installed:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2568_rez.JPG

The Titanium carrier and disc mounted:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2571_rez.JPG

The Titanium carrier, disc, caliper and braided hoses mounted:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2572_rez.JPG

Installation finished:
http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2577_rez.JPG


Left now is to bleed the brakes. Need to repair a leaky hose on my pressure bleeder first... :frown:

[e36 323ti]

how much is the whole kit?

See: http://www.318ti.org/forum/showpost.php?p=295816&postcount=235

[e36 323ti]

A minor test run done! The car was to dirty to take pictures...
The first impression is that the pedal feels less spongy than with the stock rear. The brake balance feels fine.

When bleeding the brakes I realized that my front discs are totally worn out and ready for replacement.

Next update will be based on new front discs and a proper bedded in brake system.

[zoner]

Brakes look nice, but I'd like to know more about that adjustable rear spring! :confused:

[e36 323ti]

Brakes look nice, but I'd like to know more about that adjustable rear spring! :confused:

The spring is a part of the suspension kit KW Inox Line Variant 2

[e36 323ti]

Changing the floating front discs took longer time than expected, but now its done. Here is some pictures of my ti' with vented rear discs:

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2589_rez.JPG

The full brake spec of my car then becomes:

General:
Dot 5.1 brake fluid
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads - (street) (f/r)
Performance Friction 01 Compound Brake Pads(track) (f/r)

Front:
AP Racing 330x28mm floating vented discs
AP Racing 4-pot front brake calipers (CP5200-1019)
Goodridge Steel Braided Hoses
Turner Motorsport Carbon Fibre Brake Ducts

Rear - custom made:
Z4 3.0i 294x19mm vented rear discs
AP Racing 2-pot rear brake calipers (CP5211)
Custom Titanium carriers
Custom Steel Braided Hoses from Earl's Performance Products

http://home.online.no/~krimp/sweb/images/IMG_2587_rez.JPG

Bias:
The bias, using AP Racing w. 330x28mm discs up front, is slightly moved rearwards. Stock bias is 66.59% and my configuration ends on 64.68%.

Weight:
My vented rear configuration is 1kg (2.2lbs) heavier pr. wheel than the stock configuration. That is 2 kg in addition on the rear axle. Compared to the replaced e34 m5 rear caliper previously used, the new rear configuration is 600g heavier pr. wheel...

The front BBK is 2.9kg pr. wheel lighter than the stock 323ti brakes.

Comparing my BBK with stock shows that in total my custom BBK is 3.8kg lighter than the stock 323ti/318ti configuration.

Stopping distance:
Theoretically the stopping distance is 37.2m. The result from my road test runs show a stopping distance of 37.28m in average (100-0km/h). The best was 36.59m and the worst was 37.64m. Peak g was 1.1 m^2/sec.

The experience from track days is that the brakes, so far, is functioning very well on the track, using PFC01 pads and Toyo Proxes R888 tires.

Miscellaneous:
Discovered that there exist a brake upgrade option for the TVR Cerbera using the same AP Racing calipers front and rear as in my kit. The rumor is that AP was involved in that development. The Cerbera's has between 355 and 426hp, weighing between 1100 and 1200kg...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yKu6TWfDp-I/Tj6rT58tv0I/AAAAAAAABwE/H61X_GC5pmY/20110807_0093.jpg

[e36 323ti]

Did a test run with bedded in discs and pads (Ferodo DS2500). Used my Performance Box (GPS-based logging system) in deceleration mode (100-0 km/h) to measure stopping distances.

Ambient temperature was 8 deg. C. The cold pressure in the tires was front/rear 2.6/2.8 bar. Tires used was Dunlop Sport Maxx, 225/40/18 front, 255/30/18 rear.

The e36 323ti is reported to have a stopping distance of approx. 38m (see http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32902 or http://www.monteverdiclub.com/rahmen/stoptbl.htm ). Accepting that as a valid number, my setup should theoretically result in a stopping distance of 37.2m.

The results from my test runs show a stopping distance of 37.28m in average. The best was 36.59m and the worst was 37.64m. Peak g was 1.1 m^2/sec.

Seems like theory and practice fit... :smile:

[pdxmotorhead]

:)

Now try it on a track after 10 hot laps...

Its a dirty job but it needs done! LOL

Dave

[e36 323ti]

:)

Now try it on a track after 10 hot laps...

Its a dirty job but it needs done! LOL

Dave

I am going to do that, Dave :cool:

What do you expect my experience will be?