Kirk street roll bar

[TT Racing]

Hey guys,

Maybe you can help me. I just e-mailed Kirk Racing inquiring about their street roll bar asking if they have one for the 318ti. Their response was: "Yes, we have E36 bars". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the roll bar have to be Ti specific? Or will a coupe/sedan bar fit?

[pnosker]

It has to be specific to the M44 because the manifold is higher than the 6-cyls intake mani.

[newagecustoms]

It has to be specific to the M44 because the manifold is higher than the 6-cyls intake mani. <---- i think your talking about the strut tower brace.

[pnosker]

Whoops, you're right. I had a long night... haha. Rear roll bars are specific to the 318ti, E30s (I think), and the Z3 based cars (M Roadster/Coupe) as far as I know.

[1996 328ti]

TC Kline used to have roll bars that fit in a ti.
I think hms-motorsport.com is now carrying them.
My guess a sedan bar will fit because the B pillar is in roughly the same place.
But I'd check for sure.

[mohaughn]

Let me know what you find. This is the next project for me car.

So far the advice I have is on the cheap side, and still very streetable is to get a bolt in, and if you can live with it being permanent have them weld it in.

I talked to two cage fabricators at the last DE I went to and they both suggested doing something custom so that they could tie together the rear shock towers, and also put bracing between the two frame rails that run directly inside of the shock towers.

It would be very easy to cut out your interior parts to fit around a larger custom bar. Just depends on if you need a back seat and the cargo room or not. Budget as well. General price range I got was an additional 100-300$ over a prefab type kit for a custom 4 point roll bar tied into the rear frame rails w/harness bar, gusseting reinforcements, cross bracing, seat reinforcements...

[AlaskaBlue]

I had previously talked with kirk racing and they said that it would fit the 318ti. This was for the weld in track bar though.

[TT Racing]

I just need the street roll bar, mostly just for car shows.

[Storz]

I just need the street roll bar, mostly just for car shows.

Honestly not trying to be a d#$k but how come you would need a roll bar for car shows? Looks?

[TT Racing]

Honestly not trying to be a d#$k but how come you would need a roll bar for car shows? Looks?

Yes, that is correct. One should have at least one car designated for shows and one for racing. The 318ti in this case is being built with car shows in mind.

[Storz]

^ Cool - be sure to post pictures

[Mad-Machine]

having had a rollbar in one of my Fiats, I think they are a great addition to any car with sporting ambitions.. especially if it was a convertable. It is bound to help keep the body stiff though

[Storz]

I'd like to add one to my 318ti in the future just for extra protection during track days, autocross etc

[Zacki]

ask for z3 ones.

[gimp]

Roll bars aren't good ideas in street driven cars. On the track you wear a helmet. If your head (sans helmet) makes contact with the roll bar on the street, a minor accident could end up killing you.

[mohaughn]

Considering a roll bar is usually located well behind and about your head, how would your head hit it? You are confusing running a full cage vs running a roll bar.

A full cage in a street car is not a good idea because you can hit your head. Full cages have overhead halos, and door reinforcement and a-pillar bars that your head could easily hit.

As long as you have a properly designed roll bar that is behind and above your head you should not be able to hit it. A fair amount of convertibles come with factory roll over protection. There really is no difference.

[gimp]

A properly designed roll bar is 6-8 inches behind the drivers head when the driver is in their driving position. In an accident, it wouldn't be unheard of to have the head of the driver move that far back, depending on the circumstance.

I have 14pt cage in my Camaro, and you are right, that would make a mess of you on the street, but a roll bar isn't much better.

[mohaughn]

I guess if your seat broke you could have that problem, but if your seat breaks I think you have the concern of hitting the b-pillars in the car. I think it is more of a problem of hitting your head against the window or door than hitting your head on a roll bar that is located behind you.

I've never heard of anybody getting into an accident in a Z car and hitting their head on the roll over protection bars located directly behind the head rest.

In my car the bar will be about 6-8 inches behind my head, and then about 6-7 inches above my head. That is the location that puts it as close to the roof of the car as possible, as required by most sanctioning organizations, and in alignment with the stock b-pillar in the car. The design of my bar also has the main hoop tilted back slightly to give more clearance. This is a design that I originally saw in an RRT designed roll bar and something that the shop that is going to build mine has done before with a lot of success.


But the truth of the matter if that nobody has ever done any real safety testing and engineering. So what you hear on the internet is usually just what people think. There is a post over at bimmerforums where Schroth, HMS, and some other company are actually going out and doing real safety testing and evaluations of different configurations. Street seats with scroth quick clip belts vs stock belts, vs 5point vs 6point. Roll over with no bar, a bar, bar and harness, etc... I think the main safety guy from Scroth said they had never heard of an instance where somebody was hurt worse in an accident and it was totally conclusive that it was the fault of having a rear 4 point bar or 5/6 point harnesses vs. a stock street setup.

Other stuff they did was getting in an accident using a full face helmet and an airbag vs non-full face with an airbag. Some of the data they had was pretty interesting as there really was no "safest" combination. Usually you just move the point of injury around. So with an airbag you might get damage from hitting the bag, but with a 5/6 point harness you end up with neck and soft tissue injuries.

[TT Racing]

Just so we're clear, this is the bar in question that I am getting.

http://www.kirkracing.com/street_bars.htm

[Dan I]

If/when you purchase your bar, be sure to post up how it turns out. I'll be in the market for one and would like to know, without a doubt, what fits and what doesn't. Good luck, bro!

Dan

[TT Racing]

If/when you purchase your bar, be sure to post up how it turns out. I'll be in the market for one and would like to know, without a doubt, what fits and what doesn't. Good luck, bro!

Dan



Thanks. Sadly, I still don't know for sure what bar fits. I suppose I purchase what Kirk Racing claims will fit my car, if it happens to not fit, then it is entirely their fault and will have to honor a full refund.

[Dan I]

I'll measure my brother's bar, he has an Autopower 6pt in his E36 M. Both Kirk and Autopower claim they will fit in any E36. When I get some dimensions, I'll post up.

Dan

[TT Racing]

I'll measure my brother's bar, he has an Autopower 6pt in his E36 M. Both Kirk and Autopower claim they will fit in any E36. When I get some dimensions, I'll post up.

Dan


Thanks, I look forward to your results.

[D Nasty]

Hey guys,

Maybe you can help me. I just e-mailed Kirk Racing inquiring about their street roll bar asking if they have one for the 318ti. Their response was: "Yes, we have E36 bars". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the roll bar have to be Ti specific? Or will a coupe/sedan bar fit?
Edgar it has to be for the ti not any other e36

[TT Racing]

Ahh crap, well in that case I've yet to see a Ti specific bar.

[Storz]

cant wait to see pictures of it in your car, I will be installing one for track days next summer

[Dan I]

Did some tape measure work, it looks like the main hoop will fit, but the diagonal upright supports that mount back to the wheel wells are too short for the ti. Looks like either a custom bar, or custom work to a Kirk/ Autopower bar is needed. Crap.

[TT Racing]

Have no fear. I talked to a US distributor for Weichers, and they do have a Ti specific bar. So I will be picking up a 4 point from them. :biggrin:

[Dan I]

Have no fear. I talked to a US distributor for Weichers, and they do have a Ti specific bar. So I will be picking up a 4 point from them. :biggrin:

Woo hoo! Post up when you get it!

[TT Racing]

Will do.

[pdxmotorhead]

Just a point on the roll bars,
Jeeps have had them for years,
yes they are a hazard without a roll bar pad.
But like any convertable its better than nothing.

Use a good appolstry shop and they can make up
a zip on pad that looks good.

[Mad-Machine]

just wondering.. was there ever any follow up to getting a Rollbar in the TI?

[Dan I]

I'm going to have one made... I don't even want to know how much it wold be to ship a Wiecher's bar from Germany. As far as I know, that's the only manufacturer that makes a bolt-in bar for these silly cars.

I'm going to do a 6-pt, weld in. I'll report back when it's in...

[tiFreak]

As far as I know, that's the only manufacturer that makes a bolt-in bar for these silly cars.

that's the one thing I don't like about the ti, they aren't very common cars and not a lot of companies make parts for them, before my ti I had a Ford Probe with the 4-cyl in it, and there were hardly any aftermarket bolt on parts

[TT Racing]

Update: The e36 sedan specific 4 point roll bar made by AutoPower will fit the 318ti. I just test fitted by friends newly aquired sedan bar into my car. You just have to drill two new holes on the bar rear mounts.

[Dan I]

Update: The e36 sedan specific 4 point roll bar made by AutoPower will fit the 318ti. I just test fitted by friends newly aquired sedan bar into my car. You just have to drill two new holes on the bar rear mounts.

Really?!?! That's awesome! I might just go with that...

Thanks, bro!

[TT Racing]

Really?!?! That's awesome! I might just go with that...

Thanks, bro!

Yes, sir. I already ordered mine.

[thesk8nmidget]

cant wait to see this mounted!

[mohaughn]

Any updates?

[thesk8nmidget]

+1 i wanna see this!

[mohaughn]

Yeah. Everything I have read recently implies that the Kirk bar is an exact copy of the old TcKline/McMahan bar.

If the autopower sedan bar fits then that just confirms earlier reports that the Kirk bar will also fit into a Ti.

The kirk bar is really nice, so having that one in place of a custom bar will make things cheaper. And they hold their resale value really well.

[Dan I]

Any updates? I'm almost to the point of just ordering one and making it fit (if necessary)

[mohaughn]

Well I talked to the TcKline guys and they referred me to another vendor that is supposed to start making the TcKline bars again, Pete said they would be labeled as Tc bars.

But they don't have the exact height measurements for a Sedan bar without sunroof. They can make a sedan bar for a car with a sunroof, but since I don't have a headliner I'm afraid the gap will be 2 or 3 inches. So I've sent them measurements of my car without headliner or sunroof, but I need some other measurements to send them for comparison to make sure they get the height right. I guess I may end up calling Kirk back and seeing if they have measurements for a sedan bar without sunroof and just order from them.

[Dan I]

I just pulled the trigger on an Autopower sedan bar. The lady was quite confused as to what 318 I had, but after telling her what I was planning to do, she (hopefully) understood. $480+freight and it should be here in 5-6 weeks. Whatever. Hopefully I don't have to get too busy with the welder and sawzall. I'll be sure to post pics when it's in. Stay tuned...

Dan

[mohaughn]

Cool. I think at this point I'm still chasing a dream.. hehe... I just talked to one of the guys at kirk and he said they only have a coupe bar. It may fit in a sedan, they've never tried it...

He did say that he is in the process of making a coupe bar right now for somebody that has a sedan, so if I wanted to wait and call them back in a few weeks they would know. But they didn't have measurements for a sedan with no sunroof...

Hopefully yours fits well and then I'll probably go down the same route. I really wanted to get one that fits tight against the chassis, but I don't know how possible that will be without going custom.

[TT Racing]

My Kirk 4 point came in this week. Should be in my by the weekend.

[mohaughn]

Oh. You bought a kirk bar? I was thinking you bought the autopower sedan bar. Can't wait for an update now.. :) Make sure to take pictures.

Did you get the headliner or no headliner version?

[thesk8nmidget]

oh oh snap! im excited to see this too!

put it in tonight come on!!

[Dan I]

If these bolt in with little or no modification, these manufacturers could be flooded with orders...
Kinda like when I ordered my coilovers from Ground Control; the sales rep asked me if there was a lot of online buzz about their stuff because all of a sudden they had 8-10 orders for ti's that month.

Looking forward to pics of the Kirk! :smile:

Dan

[mohaughn]

Yup. I've already talked to Kirk twice in the past month, so if this thing fits without any problems, and follows the interior lines of the car well I'll probably go ahead and order one..

I got a quote for a custom 4 point bar that goes to the rear frame, with a rear frame brace, and seat back braces for $850 not painted.

[TT Racing]

So check this out... I went to put the 4 point in today and its too tall, they sent me the non-sunroof version. :mad: Now I have to wait another 2 weeks for a new one.

[thesk8nmidget]

SONNN OFFF A BIIIITTTTCCH!

that sucks i was all excited that there were going to be pictures!

[mohaughn]

So check this out... I went to put the 4 point in today and its too tall, they sent me the non-sunroof version. :mad: Now I have to wait another 2 weeks for a new one.

What are you going to do with that one? Send it back to them? I need one that is for a non-sunroof car. How much taller is it from a sunroof version?

Do you think it will fit other than that?

I may have to call Kirk and see if I can just buy the non-sunroof bar from them once they get it back.

[TT Racing]

The new bar has arrived, but I need to sell it. I'm getting married in 4 weeks and I could use the money more than the bar. I need to get what I paid otherwise I'll keep it.

$575 picked up
As of right I'm not willing to ship.

[thesk8nmidget]

damn!

i swear we will NEVER see this installed!

[TT Racing]

damn!

i swear we will NEVER see this installed!

That's where you are wrong. I sold the bar to my friend with a 318ti and the fit was perfect. I'll take pics next week.

[thesk8nmidget]

THANK GOD!!!

please post! glad it fits!

[TT Racing]

THANK GOD!!!

please post! glad it fits!

Will do. :smile:

[TT Racing]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012096.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012095.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012094.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012092.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012093.jpg

[TT Racing]

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012091.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa95/eurotekauctions/ED1234567890012090.jpg

[thesk8nmidget]

looks great!!

glad to see it all done and installed in someones ti!

[ATF]

Time to rip out the rear seats :)

[TT Racing]

Time to rip out the rear seats :)

Yup, This is going to be a purpose built drift car and will be getting an S50 transplant next week. :biggrin:

[thesk8nmidget]

VERY NICE what wheels did i see on that?

[TT Racing]

VERY NICE what wheels did i see on that?

18" BBS RC

[thesk8nmidget]

SEXY

[tiFreak]

Time to rip out the rear seats :)

why? you can still use it, you just have to have friends who are midget contortionists ;)

[Dan I]

I'm finally in on the action...
Autopower 4pt. E36 sedan bar, Schroth Profi Hybrid 6pt Harness.
Roll bar bolted right in, no modifications necessary. Other than a pretty crappy job of cutting the carpet around the main hoop landings, it looks fantastic.
Order 'em up, guys!

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/iversondan/TiRollbarHarness001.jpg

[thesk8nmidget]

very nice! any luck getting that lock button wiring out??

try getting a few more pictures! it looks good!

[Dan I]

a couple more pics
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/iversondan/TiRollbarHarness002.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/iversondan/TiRollbarHarness003.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/iversondan/TiRollbarHarness005.jpg

[Jean H.318TI]

i want one but the whole thing not only in the back

[thesk8nmidget]

very nice! how is the ride? did you notice any stiffening of your chassis?
i want you clear tails!

the bar looks awesome!

[mohaughn]

Kind of an old thread at this point, but my car will be headed to the fab shop next Monday to have a custom bar installed...

We are reviewing all of the different rules and regulations to make sure I can add onto the 4 point roll bar in the future if I ever decide to go wheel to wheel.

I've been prepping the car more recently an have removed all of the airbags, airbag sensors, and belts..

I'll be using sparco seats along with VAC floor mounts. The driver side seat I'm using vac aluminum side mounts. I could not get the EVO 2+ to fit on the vac plates using sparco side mounts. The passenger side is a sparco sprint 5 using sparco steel side mounts. The aluminum mounts are probably 2 pounds lighter per side.

Steering wheel is a momo mod88 with a LTB weld-on quick disconnect hub. Belts for both seats are G-force pro series 6 points.

I ended up going with the Evo2+ as I got a great deal buying a brand new seat from a BfC member. I'm a taller guy, so the evo2+ is the seat that seems to fit me the best. The regular Evo2 has the shoulder openings a bit low. Having the proper shoulder harness height is important for insuring a hans device fits properly. The Evo2+ is also the hans specific Evo seat. The sprint5 is the revamped sparco Sprint seat. The new model has a bottom opening for the sub belts, as well as it is FIA homologated.

I sat in an E30 that had an autopower roll cage, and my head was to close to the rear hoop for my comfort. Doing the custom 4 point will insure that I have plenty of headroom as the bar will fit my stripped interior nearly perfectly.

The shop will also be taking a plasma torch to a lot of the exposed brackets throughout my car that I'm no longer using. Probably won't add up to a lot, but 10 pounds is still 10 pounds..

They get the car on Monday, and should have it back to me in a week or two.. Worst case, I'll have the car back by the end of October in order to make my next DE in November.

[Jean H.318TI]

i want the full roll cage so bad but money is low now :(

[mohaughn]

You should expect to pay something like 2500 to 3500 for a custom roll cage. Keep in mind that unless you fully race prep your car and get a rule book that is is very likely that the rules for bolt in roll cages could change if you ever decide to try and go racing in the future.

Several organizations have already changed their rules to not allow bolt in roll cages, and I know some people that think NASA and SCCA road racing may follow along. The only thing that might keep that from happening is that NASA and SCCA try to be very affordable to race with, but it would really suck to spend money on a bolt in roll cage and then have to do something different if you ever decide to try and race.

There is also the issue that the bolt in cages lack proper foot protection.

At this time, I don't need a full cage, so why lug around the extra weight? I'm still going to be reducing weight even with adding the 4 point roll bar, and that is a good thing.

[Jean H.318TI]

nice well i dont think im gonna race anytime soon but hey u never know right? thanks for the heads up, so u think is better if i get the weld in better?

[mohaughn]

If you want it more for looks and street use, I wouldn't worry about a weld-in. Just make sure you get a reputable setup and use the proper hardware, and you'll be fine...

For a track car, I'd really consider a weld in roll bar. With shipping costs where they are, it is the same cost to get a custom weld in, as it is for a pre-fab bolt in. And a properly welded in bar should be safer.

[Jean H.318TI]

thanks for the info.

how is the ride? did you notice any stiffening on the chassis?

[mohaughn]

I'll tell you in about a week or so... We finalized the design and materials today. We both had to go back and review rule books for SCCA and NASA to make sure I don't have a problem in the future. I still have one outstanding question from the NASA rule book. But I think I'm ok with the current design as it is.. The rear down tubes will be tied into the rear shock mounts and a re-enforcement bar will be welded between the shock mounts. So there should be an improvement in the rear chassis stiffness.

[Jean H.318TI]

kool just let me know and post pics of ur roll cage

[mohaughn]

Did I mention how much I hate fabrication shops? May be great with metal, but they sure can suck with time management...

The shop that was doing this work for me, is closing up shop. The fabricator can still do the work, but it is questionable if he can get it done in time for my next driving event, which I leave for next Thursday... So he has a friend that has another shop locally and they are going to try and get my car in as a rush job to get it done by next Thursday.

The bad thing is that I had originally talked to this second shop and was going to have them do the work. A good friend of mine, a long time SCCA racer, told me to use the other guy as he is a master welder and really does some good work.

I guess the reason they are going out of business is because they mostly did high end honda engines and tuning. And most of that business has dried up with the recent economic issues and the credit crunch. I would guess that most of his customers were younger people that were financing their mods. So they are closing up the parts and tuning side, and the fabricator is moving into a smaller shop to do just fabrication. What fun...

[andy]

Heh - I wish I'd seen this thread earlier.

The standard 4pt autopower bar fits in the ti - I had it in mine in there for years. One thing that everyone should take note of - the B-pillar feet on most bars are probably 4" by 3" wide - if you roll your car with those on there, they will puncture through the flimsy floor and the bar will not do any good. I'd seen some pictures of this happening before I did mine and cut 8" by 8" flat pieces of steel for the feet to sit on. Years later when I took the bar out, the floor had actually bowed up from the bolts under it. In short, don't bolt directly to sheet metal without serious extra reinforcement!!!

Generally I outsource most cage work - it's really a tremendous pain. The shop I work with in Campbell (BTM Motorwerks) and I decided to build a 'quick' cage last year for a 24 Hours of LeMons car - holy crap, you cannot imagine the work involved without being part of it. Suffice it to say, it's one of the few e34s with a full cage still. :)

[mohaughn]

Yeah, I've heard from a few different places that the kirk or autopower bars work without a problem. I actually had a local guy lined up to put bigger plates and weld an autopower in for me.

This custom bar is going to be the same price as an autopower welded in. I ended up talking to the guy a few more times today. He was able to find a shop in Melbourne, right by his shop(about 1.5 hours from me), that should be able to have it done by next Monday or Tuesday. He is also going to baby sit it at the other shop and do some of the finishing touches for me. There are still some other "cleaning" up things that will have to wait for later.

Ultimately it is not an intentional delay, and he has the situation worked out, so I'm happy. I really wanted this guy to do the fabrication as he does some sick work... Check out this 450cc turbo scooter- http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2297467&page=1 if you look close enough, you can spot my car in a pic.

The other nice thing is that we have already talked about being able to cut the base plates out, drop the roll bar through the floor, and be able to add a full cage at a future time. It'll add a few hours of labor to the total job, but I'll have a better roll bar for it.

[mohaughn]

Geezz.. these guys are pushing it right to the deadline... I'll be picking up the car tomorrow afternoon and leaving straight from there for my track event in Roebling.

They were able to get everything done except getting the new steering wheel mounted. They were still going to try and run the hub adapter by a machine shop to get a lip lathed out on the inside of the metal spline piece this way they could do a rosette weld. They were willing to do a butt weld if I told them to, but they didn't seem to think it was the safest way to do it.

So assuming I don't get any last minute surprises, I should be able to post up some pictures when I get to the hotel tomorrow night.

Anybody in Savannah want to help me flush my brake fluid in the middle of the night tomorrow? :cool:

[budget76]

So guys, you want me to try to dig up some pics of my roll bar? Only read the last page, dont know if you guys have any pics posted

[mohaughn]

There are pics of a bar on page 4. Mine will be similar to this- http://www.tcdesignfab.com/mike_e36rollbar.html

[budget76]

Hmm, found that. You guys have more than me, i've got a simple 3 point, with a removable harness bar across it. I like it, keeps full access to the rear, and It's only 2 bolts if I want the harnesses in. Tried to get in the back with the harness bar in, and at 6'2 and not a contortionist, it was quite humorous :biggrin:

[Dan I]

I noticed the lack of a good footprint for the main hoop onto the chassis also. 8x8 or larger welded in should do the trick...

Looking forward to some pics of your setup, Mo :smile:

[mohaughn]

Sorry I didn't post any pics up last night.. Yesterday was super hectic and I didn't get into the hotel until late. I spent some time between sessions today trying to clean up the mess from welding off brackets and overspray.. So here ya go.. Once everything is completely finished I will spend some time cleaning things up more and get pictures of all of the reinforced harness mounts, and the close ups of the different supports that were welded in... I think most of the base plates are like 6x6.. They had to beat sections of the floor flat, and the bar doesn't come down at exactly 90 degrees because of how the floor pan is not flat...

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DCEcMmuu2u0/SRT1TMyiawI/AAAAAAAAAIU/AynmA7cO0dU/s512/P1000326-s.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DCEcMmuu2u0/SRT1TQBpJ4I/AAAAAAAAAIc/1L8EcDqOGlY/s512/P1000327-s.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_DCEcMmuu2u0/SRT1THIn5sI/AAAAAAAAAIM/AjPQIqnenBI/s512/P1000325-s.JPG


I put some FIA approved rollbar padding on the diaganol cross brace, as well as the driver side portion of the main hoop after I took this pictures. I have another 3 feet of padding and will probably cover the passenger side portion as well.

If you notice, the evo2+ is the passenger seat right now. We couldn't get it to aligned properly to the steering wheel, so I put the sprint 5 in the driver side for the time being. The evo2+ will be my driver seat as that is a hans specific seat and that is one of the main reasons I did all of this, I want to start using a hans device.

edit-- hmm.... I can't right click and copy the location for gallery photos any more, and the links are not working.. not sure what is up with that..

editx2-- posted them to google.. Also, the steering wheel was not installed, so I just have a stock wheel without airbag for the time being. I have a momo mod88 to replace it.

[gimp]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DCEcMmuu2u0/SRT1TMyiawI/AAAAAAAAAIU/AynmA7cO0dU/s512/P1000326-s.JPG

Don't mean to pick, but you may want to consider extending the rear down tubes to the floor. In the event of a roll over, it would be beneficial to have the extra support and prevent the rear bar between the strut towers from deflecting downward.

If you haven't seen it yet, check out this thread at corner carvers (http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556) for some really good information.

[mohaughn]

Don't mean to pick, but you may want to consider extending the rear down tubes to the floor. In the event of a roll over, it would be beneficial to have the extra support and prevent the rear bar between the strut towers from deflecting downward.

If you haven't seen it yet, check out this thread at corner carvers (http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556) for some really good information.


That area of the floor is not structural. It is just thin sheet metal that would more than likely rip. The only way to do it properly would be to extend a bar down to the rear subframe and tie the rear bar into that.. Doing that consitutes "frame bracing" and in cases like NASA-TT is a big point add-on. The way it is done now is SCCA and NASA legal. The rollbar picture that I posted earlier from TcDesign fab has two downward supports, but the rear trunk area of a coupe is much different than the trunk of a Ti. Just not possible without doing a lot more work to the car.

I would also say that doing it this way is much safer than the bolt in bars that attach to the sheet metal wheel arches, which again, are not a structure component. Could this be safer? Sure, it could be a full 10 point cage that is totally tied into the frame at multiple points, but that wasn't the intention of the bar.

edit- I should add that the original design I discussed with the fabricator did have reinforcements to the rear chassis points. I still need to get a few other opinions on the placement of the down bars, I think they should be farther out on the top of the main hoop than they are. So the design and placement of the rear bars could change. I certainly don't mind feedback as I'm not an engineer or a cage builder. I need to post the pics in the BfC track section and see if I can get some feedback from the engineers there.

[mohaughn]

So Gimp, you weren't to far off on your opinion.. Took the car by an experienced crew member for a Grand Am Cup and Koni challenge team as well as posting it up on BFC, and the general opinion is that the down bars are way to far inwards on the strut bar. I talked to the guy who did it and he is going to cut them out and move them over. I just hope he takes some time to grind it down and make it look good.

But, it is good enough for the time being, but this is all about safety, so if something can be made to be safer, it should be done.

[gimp]

So Gimp, you weren't to far off on your opinion.. Took the car by an experienced crew member for a Grand Am Cup and Koni challenge team as well as posting it up on BFC, and the general opinion is that the down bars are way to far inwards on the strut bar. I talked to the guy who did it and he is going to cut them out and move them over. I just hope he takes some time to grind it down and make it look good.

But, it is good enough for the time being, but this is all about safety, so if something can be made to be safer, it should be done.

That seems pretty reasonable. I do know what you mean about unsupported sheet metal - I'm building a 14pt cage in a unibody car (my 1981 Camaro). Plating it would help, but moving the downbars outwards is a better solution.

Great looking cage overall. I'm very jealous.

[mohaughn]

Goes back in on Saturday... I worked with Apexperformance and Schroth racing on some other aspects of the install and they made some suggestions about my 6 point belt placement that also needs to be change...

So the shop will be fixing the main hoop support bars, putting extra reinforcement under the strut bar, welding closed the holes from the spare tire, mounting a fire extinguisher, as well as changing all of my bolt down belts to clips and eyebolts.

I also had a different race team machine a custom threaded rod that screws into the stock hole that secures the steering wheel. It then comes back as a smooth barrel that slides inside of my LTB hub adapter. I should be test fitting that today, and if it all fits snugly, the welder will do my steering wheel with all of the other stuff.

The weight reduction from the seats, the extra rear chassis stiffness, as well as the extra support from the sparco seats really made a difference though. I ran almost 3 seconds faster than my previous best timed lap at Sebring last weekend. Some of that can be attributed to getting some coaching from a seasoned HSR/porsche racer, the rest to increased confidence in the feel of the car. I was also running on my stock 282 tune when I ran that hot lap.

[Jean H.318TI]

nice keep taking pics of the whole setup im gonna do the same sooner or later

[mohaughn]

I was supposed to have the car back today after some delays in the shop fixing the work, but they are not sure if they are going to get it done before the end of the day, so I'm planning on picking it up on Monday. The car would have just been sitting in my garage as I was not doing any driving events this month, so the delays haven't really bothered me.

They did a lot more than just fixing the main hoop supports, like, installing a fire extinguisher between the seats, cutting out and then closing up the spare tire "spring mount", switching my bolt in harnesses to eyebolts and clips, putting my harness mount points in the proper location per Scroth(HMSmotorsports), installing my momo steering wheel/qd hub, and modifying my seat mounts so that my driver seat is more centered on the steering wheel. There were also some mounts/brackets that were no longer needed in the car that were removed for safety.

They basically ended up completely cutting out the rear support bars and the strut bar and redoing it with the rear bars at the end of the strut bar, as well as two 4 inch braces coming down from the strut bar to the frame rail under the strut bar. I talked to them today about doing extra gussets between the two down bars and the mounting plate on the strut towers. It should be a much better design after this.

They had to tidy up a few things today and then they should be sending me some pictures of where the car is today so that if I see any problems they can fix it before Monday.