OBDI MOTR TO OBDII CAR???

[Sunday]

Hello,

I have a 1998 318ti and have been considering an M3 engine swap. I recently bought a wrecked 1995 M3 to use the drivetrain out of. I guess my first question is can I do this? Is it possible to use the OBDI motor in an OBDII car?

I was planning on transplanting the M3 motor into the ti, plugging in the harness, using the ti rearend (I would prefer more low end power than high end). Is all this feasible or will I have to have a team of scientist?

I also am not sure which rearend, driveshaft and computer I will need to use.

Any help or info is greatly appreciated!!

[ayton]

it can be done but you must use the 95 harness with the motor.While it is technically illegal...I know of a car, which is incidentally for sale now.

[J!m]

Use the '95 harness as well as the ECU from the '95. You will loose traction control and driveaway protection, but it will run fine.

I have ridden in a '97 with a '95 motor.

You will need to upgrade the rearend eventually. It WILL break. See if you can find an M-Coupe` or M-Roadster diff and half shafts. You may need the trailing arms as well for this swap. I have not done it yet, so I cannot comment with authority on the whole rear end delema. I've also seen E30 differentials used, with minor difficulty.

The drive shaft may have to be cut, if the M transmission is used. I'm not sure. I kept the ti transmission, and used the ti driveshaft.

You have a load of other problems to deal with as well. Namely cooling concerns etc. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye...

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"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

[This message has been edited by J!m (edited 11-11-2002).]

[ayton]

cooling isn't that much of an issue...actually not an issue. My friend has this swap and retained ti ti radiator and fan set up....he drove the car round trip FL to Chicago...NO PROBLEMS! Which is amazing considering he lives in FL and his needle does not budge at all! I can show you guys pics of the set-up!

[Sunday]

Thanks guys for your help so far. I'm concerned about the cooling issues, I was planning on using the complete cooling system out of my M3 parts car.

You mentioned the rearend would eventually break, would I be better of to just install the M3 trans/driveshaft/rearend ?

You mentioned that I would lose the driveway protection, my alarm will still work but I will lose the engine cut off, correct?

Would it be less hassle to put a 96-99 OBDII M3 motor in, and sell the 95 M3 motor kit? If so why?

What would the 95 M3 kit be worth do you think?

Thanks again for your help!! I have tried to contact Koala multiple times through their pay per incident tech support and have never received any response from them so this is my only source of help.

[J!m]

Since you have the M3 cooling system, I would absolutely use it. Don't screw around with other parts. I purchased everything new, because I did not have a car to scavange parts from. I did not even CONSIDER using the four-cylinder radiator with a six. It's like using a small block radiator with a big block. Not smart. I would like to believe all that testing a car manufacturer does before going into production on a new car is for some reason... Don't second guess the factory. They don't want to have warranty claims.

There is nothing wrong with the '95 motor. Go ahead and use it. while it's apart, get a new clutch kit and a light weight flywheel. Also, change the water pump (plastic impeller on the old ones) and the plastic water neck on the front of the engine. They break as they age, and your's is getting old. It's easy as hell to change while the motor is out. I think BMP and maybe Rogue has the necks.

The M3 rear suspension is different from the ti. The ti has semi-trailing arms, and the M3 has the "Z-link" or multi-link set up, what ever you want to call it. The brakes will most likely work, but you will need the trailing arms from a roadster/coupe` for sure. The half-shafts may be different, but maybe not. The diff is different. You can run the ti diff in the mean time, just be aware that it must be changed. Nothing worse than being the "big man" with a nice hole-shot at a light (while the Honda owner looks on in horror) and the diff ****s out the back of the car... His super-hot (and brainless) girlfriend will not be impressed by this, I assure you.

If you plan on using the A/C in the ti, you will need the hoses from the fire wall to the compressor as well as from the compressor to the condenser out of the M3. The ti parts don't work. If it's open for any lengfth of time, a new dryer will be needed as well.

The alarm SHOULD still work, but I don't know for sure (I assume you mean the factory alarm). An after market alarm should work fine.

If you use the M3 transmission, use the M3 drive shaft as well.

Brett can take a few days to respond (unless you send money). Don't worry too much about it. Get the motor in, and sort out the details later, if you can be without the car. Try talking to your local dealer too. SOMETIMES, they can actually be helpfull.

One thing I'm not sure of is the driveaway protection. I know it interfaces with the ECU, but if the ECU is changed to the early one, will the driveaway module still be looking for the old ECU? And if so, will the car start, or will a modification/diabaling of the driveaway protection module be needed?
I'm not sure about this. Brett is a good source of info in this arena.

Food for thought...

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"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

[Sunday]

I finally managed to get the engine installed. Everything is in palce and ready to go. The only problem I am having now is the car is not getting any spark. It is getting constant signal at the coils but no firing signal. We have tested the computer and also snipped the #7 wire at diagnostic harness for security. It will crank and has fuel, just no spark. Any thoughts??

Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks,
Sunday

[J!m]

I don't know if cutting that "security" wire was the correct course of action. Maybe it NEEDS a signal, rather than lack of a signal (reverse logic) to operate. Anyone can cut a wire, but if the wire carries a specific signal or voltage to inform the ECU that the correct key is installed, and it is cut, it won't get the signal, and therefore will not start (this makes it more difficult for a thief to by-pass). However, if it cranks over, and gets fuel, but there is no spark, the ECU itself may be damaged, or a wire between the ECU and engine. (dealer)

I have not done the swap you have done, I did an OBD-II swap, and had the dealer sort out the driveaway protection issues. As far as I was aware, once the OBD-I ECU and wiring harness are installed, the driveaway protection no longer works. I don't know if any other changes need to be made.

It is possible that one or more pins in the connector between car and engine need to be moved.

Sorry I cannot be of more help to you, and the '97 with '95 motor I rode in was not swapped by the current owner, so he does not have any knowledge on the details of the swap to share...

Keep trying Brett, or a local BMW dealership. If you use a dealer, tell them EVERYTHING you did, and see if they can work with you on it.

Best of luck

J!m

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"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

[Sunday]

ok, actually right after I left the last message on here we found a black lead that wasnt connected to battery , everything is fine now. Also I wanted to mention that I cant take my car to the local dealership (and they are the only bmw dealer within at least 100 or more miles)because they told me that if I did the motor swap not only will they NOT do any work on my car whatsoever , but that they will enter into the main bmw worldwide server (?), by vin # ,that my car is to be branded salvage and should not be touched by any bmw dealer in the nation. !!! yes, this was straight out of the service guys mouth.

[J!m]

THAT'S interesting... My dealer not only helped me sort out the details, but also ran the vin on the "donor" car to verify the DINAN software install, and any recalls or other details I need to know on my new motor.

It sound's to me like your dealer SUCKS ASS, and simply wants to be, well a Mercedes dealer or something. Merc' owners get off on all that "I'm better than you" crap.

I do not believe that your dealer has the authority to change the car's status in the computer. If he lists it as "salvage" without a state issued salvage title, he is commiting fraud, and would therefore be liable. The fact that your engine is older than the car, IS cause for concern on your part, as this is VERBOTEN in CA and some other states. Swapping motors is cool, but the motor cannot be older than the car, and all emmisions controls must be retained. This may be where your dealer is coming from. (of course, you would need some kind oof prooof of age for the motor, to do anything real...)

But, I still think he's a but-plug.

At least it's running now. Hang on, it's fast as hell now...

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"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

[J!m]

THAT'S interesting... My dealer not only helped me sort out the details, but also ran the vin on the "donor" car to verify the DINAN software install, and any recalls or other details I need to know on my new motor.

It sound's to me like your dealer SUCKS ASS, and simply wants to be, well a Mercedes dealer or something. Merc' owners get off on all that "I'm better than you" crap.

I do not believe that your dealer has the authority to change the car's status in the computer. If he lists it as "salvage" without a state issued salvage title, he is commiting fraud, and would therefore be liable. The fact that your engine is older than the car, IS cause for concern on your part, as this is VERBOTEN in CA and some other states. Swapping motors is cool, but the motor cannot be older than the car, and all emmisions controls must be retained. This may be where your dealer is coming from. (of course, you would need some kind oof prooof of age for the motor, to do anything real...)

But, I still think he's a but-plug.

At least it's running now. Hang on, it's fast as hell now...

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"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you 'wanna go?"

[ayton]

while I'm certainly a day late and a dollar short here I want to chime in a little and dispute some beliefs here 1) the 318ti radiator is actually LARGER than that of the six and using it's thermostat is actually better for the car as it starts the cooling process faster (lower temp)...anyone heard of the fan delet mod? check www.understeer.com for a write up and yes your dealer is a butt plug (total BS)! anyway if you wanted to make your 3.0 look like a 3.2 you can swap the covers. so a quick glance wouldn't reveal anything I don't see why he would go that far because there are no warranty issues involved, as long as your paying... :rolleyes:

[J!m]

Well, I have issue with the radiator statement. The M3 radiator is about 2 inches wider than the ti radiator. The mounting clip on the radiator support has to be moved over, and the left lower radiator mount needs to be changed for the 6 radiator to fit.

Did I dream all that? :shock: Did I purchase a brand-new M3 radiator only to find it to be smaller than the ti radiator? No to both: I have a 6-cylinder radiator in my car, and the ti radiator on the floor.

You may be correct about the thermostat, it most likey DOES run a bit hotter in the 6 to reduce emmisions. And, if THAT information is correct, I could see the value in running the ti thermostat, but you WILL get a new one and not re-use the old one right???

Also, the 3.0 M-cover has the oil fill on the rear of the head, while the 3.2 M-cover has the filler on the front of the head. You could get the later 'M' oil cap though...

[ayton]

Well Jim, I'll say this much from what I understand the ti radiator is fatter not longer so 6 in one half dozen the other volume is the key. and knowing someone who personally has done the conversion while retaining the part I'll lay my belief there. also I may have mixed words a bit, yes you can use the thermostat but I was infact referencing the fan switch a totally seperate part sorry for any confusion. aslo you can add the 3.2 top end to the 3.0 head...just the covers with the cover that lays underneath for the proper oil filler orientation. I have seen this done also I can send you in his direction.

[J!m]

Hmmm. It may in fact be fatter. I did not notice a difference in thickness, but I still have both of them so I can verify it for everyone here.

If I was BMW, and the volume was nearly the same (or even slightly more with the ti radiator) I would spec in one part across the board, rather than two (erring on the 'too-big' side). This would save production and warehousing costs. BUT, if the ti radiator had a higher cooling capacity, it would be in the M3 (if not in all the 6 cars) already, don't you think?

As far as cooling capicity goes, you need more surface area, not just more volume. Volume does help, by taking more time for all the volume to heat-up (thereby delaying the time to operating temp.), but once at operating temperature, the area exposed to cool air is what does the cooling. Also, the flow rate through the radiator (assuming it can transfer enough heat) will improve total cooling capicity. A smaller surface area can cool better than a large one if the air passing through is colder, and/or the velocity of that air is higher [wind-chill]. (F1 takes advantage of this: water is heavy)

the company I work for designs heat exchangers for plasma torches. These guns run at 40+kW, and generate a LOT of heat, so I have some experience in this area (but I don't design heat-exchangers myself).

So, to recap: Cooling ability is maximised a few ways: volume of coolant, surface area of the radiator, velocity of air through the radiator, temperature of cooling air through radiator, and flow rate of the coolant through the radiator. Stuff like 'water wetter" help too, as does a clean cooling system. Materials help a lot: copper has a very high thermal conductivity, which is one reason why we use it for the torch nozzles.

Bottom line: if you are happy with the ti radiator with a six, God bless you. I'll stick with what the factory engineered stuff, thank you. I still have faith in German engineering, even if others don't.

[ayton]

Hmmm. It may in fact be fatter. I did not notice a difference in thickness, but I still have both of them so I can verify it for everyone here.

If I was BMW, and the volume was nearly the same (or even slightly more with the ti radiator) I would spec in one part across the board, rather than two (erring on the 'too-big' side). This would save production and warehousing costs. BUT, if the ti radiator had a higher cooling capacity, it would be in the M3 (if not in all the 6 cars) already, don't you think?

As far as cooling capicity goes, you need more surface area, not just more volume. Volume does help, by taking more time for all the volume to heat-up (thereby delaying the time to operating temp.), but once at operating temperature, the area exposed to cool air is what does the cooling. Also, the flow rate through the radiator (assuming it can transfer enough heat) will improve total cooling capicity. A smaller surface area can cool better than a large one if the air passing through is colder, and/or the velocity of that air is higher [wind-chill]. (F1 takes advantage of this: water is heavy)

So, to recap: Cooling ability is maximised a few ways: volume of coolant, surface area of the radiator, velocity of air through the radiator, temperature of cooling air through radiator, and flow rate of the coolant through the radiator. Stuff like 'water wetter" help too, as does a clean cooling system. Materials help a lot: copper has a very high thermal conductivity, which is one reason why we use it for the torch nozzles.

Bottom line: if you are happy with the ti radiator with a six, God bless you. I'll stick with what the factory engineered stuff, thank you. I still have faith in German engineering, even if others don't.

FWIW "points" are awarded on both sides but don't give BMW too much credit. Some of their ideas are flawed and have their fair share of inconsistency.on the heat issue YES I understand all of that and agree but FWIW the 318 temp technology does work for the I6 designations. FDM=PROVEN reliability.in fact without rhyme or reason BMW itself has cars born on the same day with different build characteristics ex. clutch fan no clutch fan (1st hand BMW tech knowledge) on another subject BMW bean counters....you spoke of double engineering with no purpose just look at the ti while it shares its front end with the sedan it could have also shared it's dash and many other parts without extra expence, but...and FWIW German egineering also "suffers" from a THRIVING aftermarket! JTD, RE, UUC....aesthetics aside, lets be realistic..."I'll stick with what the factory engineered stuff, thank you. I still have faith in German engineering, even if others don't" RSM's ? ;}

[1996 328ti]

On my 328ti the water temp always reads a needle width to the left of center. The radiator is froma 328. I can't see why anyone doing a conversion would create more work and expense. Does it have something to do with the transmission lines?

The oil fill is on the front. I have removed the cover to replace what was an M3 cover. The inlet must match what is underneath. I don't know about the 3.0.

A salvage title in one state can be replaced with a rebuilt title in another state. That is what happened to my 1st ti after I totalled it.

[ayton]

On my 328ti the water temp always reads a needle width to the left of center. The radiator is froma 328. I can't see why anyone doing a conversion would create more work and expense. Does it have something to do with the transmission lines?

The oil fill is on the front. I have removed the cover to replace what was an M3 cover. The inlet must match what is underneath. I don't know about the 3.0.

A salvage title in one state can be replaced with a rebuilt title in another state. That is what happened to my 1st ti after I totalled it.

thats just what I'm saying it isn't more work or expense...1yr pretty much daily driven and no problems...love it hate it,it works thats my point.My whole point in bringging it up was that when setting out to do the conversion the ti radiator could be used in the meantime to save a few bucks for the important things (fitment knicks and knacks) now when it comes time for replacement I would definately say get the I6 radiator because the ti radiator is in most cases double the cost if not nearly 2/3 the price. I think we can put this part of the debate out to pasture.