Camshaft Degreeing for performance

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

So I've got all the tools to setup a camshaft degreeing kit for folks to degree their camshafts for performance. BMW sets their M44 camshafts with a locking tool that locks the back camshaft squares at top with the flywheel pinned, not an exact measurement.

It is also known that they took out some overlap in the camshaft timing to make for a smoother idle. This reduction in overlap of the camshaft timing reduces overall performance just to create a smoother idle.

In my opinion, Metric Mechanic’s and many top builders the best way to degree your camshaft is with a dial indicator and you measure valve lift off the valve seat when the piston is at TDC on the non compression stroke. This is very accurate and gets your degree 100% dead on. You have to have a special lifter installed which has been completely compressed and welded in the compressed position (supplied with kit). You do not use a degree wheel. I will supply detailed instructions and ask for members help writing the instruction before I start sending the kit out for people that are interested in gaining additional untapped HP from their motors.

Some issues I have are I only have performance lift off seat numbers for turbo motors currently so I’m asking if anyone has specs for performance valve lift off seat for stock camshafts. Even if you only know the performance spec using a degree wheel, I can use that to do a local car with the degree wheel then measure with the more accurate way using the dial indicator method.

The dial indicator method is very simple in my opinion and most DIY people should have no issue doing this project in 1-2 hours to gain some untapped power. You will most likely not even notice a change in idle quality but you will definitely notice a increase in power.

So anyone that can help with specs on Valve lift off seat during overlap or even camshaft degree for performance please get involved and help me help us all get this going.

Thanks, John S

[Jean H.318TI]

im the first one doing this right?

[cooljess76]

Now you're talkin John! This is going to be BY FAR the best bang for the buck for M44 guys looking for a little more power. When paired with good software and decent flowing exhaust, you're sure to notice a REAL improvement.


I timed my s52 cams with a dial indicator. Not sure what the factory spec was, but I'm not sold on the flywheel locking pin method either. John, I had a difficult time piecing together a dial indicator setup. I ended up buying a MHC dial indicator with a 2" stroke, a dial indicator extension, a couple 14mm spark plug non-foulers and a Motion Pro 14mm spark plug hole adapter. I basically used this to find "TRUE" TDC. I also machined my own cam locking tool which is what I used to set it to factory spec. Degree-ing your cams to a custom setting will be a little more tricky, but as John said, you can squeeze out a significant amount of HP. Just be careful not to sqeeze too hard as valves hitting pistons tend to make really expensive paper weights:wink:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q122/cooljess76/CIMG4853.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q122/cooljess76/CIMG4866.jpg

[pdxmotorhead]

Just a side point, if you don't understand lobe separation, duration, and in general HOW a cam affects the engine. (Its more than raw lift and duration) Its worth the money to have a pro do it... Especially with a twin cam motor...

Dave

[spidertri]

I'm definitely interested John, thanks for doing this!

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

The whole point of this kit is to supply the tools to do this project correct with complete instructions, maybe a video so the average DIY can complete the project.

It is a simple project in my opinion. The only thing I'm currently missing is the actual lift off seat numbers for stock motor performance setup. People would be adding a slight bit of overlap in there cam timing so the engine could use the great factory headers to scavenge and pull the intake charge into the cylinder like the motor is built to do from the factory.

This is the really neat thing about twin cam motors, You can play with cam overlap by adjusting them. On a single cam motor you would need to regrind the camshaft to change overlap...

So anyone with anyone with numbers?

John S

[tommymac75]

could you send me more info on the kit- hwere to get it and how much- i will be doing my head swap once i finish rebuilding the head so i have to set the timingi can give this a shot

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Well I currently only have cam setting information for a turbo motor which is almost zero overlap to stop the boost from blowing out the exhaust. I'm still looking for the stock numbers to degree for performance then I can do the valve off seat measurements then start sending he kit out.

I have seen it before in the internet but I've nt had any luck finding it lately.

There was a good write-up on this about 2 years ago but I can't remember the board it was on. A BMW tech did it.

John Smith

[tommymac75]

what would i need to get the info you are looking for befor i pull my head i get you the info you need i have extra valve adjuster i can weld soild and a dial indecator to measure things out

[familytruckster]

I have a spare complete M44 head and an M42 motor sitting around if they would be of any help

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

There was a article a BMW tech did on the M44 and he degreed the cams for performance and dynoed it and showed the increases from degreeing the cams for performance. He listed the degree changes on the camshafts. I need that article then I can degree a motor like that and take my valve off seat measurements and we would be all set. I have all the tools ready to go I just need to degree the cams to his spec and get my valve off seat measurements to ensure we are dialing in the camshafts right for performance camshaft timing. This camshaft timing will add some overlap and help with scavenging and will produce more power accross the rpm band. Only down side is you might have a slight shake in the idle but not anything bad, only a tiny shake...I already have this due to the massive duration of my cams and it is nothing at all

That is all...

[spidertri]

John, did you see that article online or was it in a magazine or something?

[familytruckster]

old thread here, with a little info on the BMW timing adjustment...

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21403


And I found this after searching for like 5 hours, and about 100 pages of google results...
From http://www.r3vlimited.com/tech/318is/318is.htm which I found here http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/e30-3-series-prior/112051-myth-m42-motors-cam-sprocket-adjustable-2.html

Adjust the cam timing - You know how on the E30 M3 you have to buy a $300 kit with adjustable cam sprockets to tune your cam timing? Not on the 318iS! The M42 is equipped with tunable cam sprockets from the factory. So pull your Cosmoline covered valve cover off and with the proper tools you can tweak your intake and exhaust cams up to 6 degrees +/- to provide more top end horsepower or more low end torque. See, you don’t have to blow a grand on a set of Schrick cams to make your M42’s cams a little hotter. The best setup is to adjust the intake cam to 5 degrees (advanced) and leave the exhaust cam alone. I would recommend having a shop do this work.


Also found some interesting info on the cam lockdown tool and how they did the advancement before the updated tools were made. I'm wondering if all the cams are the same between years. The one ppost I found said the techs used a 1mm drill bit on the alignment tool to advance the intake cam the 6*

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

^^Very nice..I'm looking for a article specific to the M44. I can do the math for the M42 with what you have here. I would like you help with your motors so you can do the degree then do the valve of seat measurement so we can eliminate any cam diffenences. The valve off seat cam adjustment elimates different cams and only looks at when the valve timing happens.

I will get into this more.

Thanks for the PM's and sorry I'm behnd on responces, I've been sleeping and working on boats and other items to make cash-flow

John Smith

[spidertri]

Yeah, I've found a lot of threads about M42 degreeing but not many about the M44.

[familytruckster]

Yeah, pretty much the only info about degreeing M44 cams was the rough idle issue.

However, this means if the work was done on your M44, you can get power back by just setting the cams back to the original factory setting.

Any other hints or info on that article that might help us find it?

[spidertri]

John, is there any chance Metric would have this info and would share it with you? I'd imagine they have the specs since they make aftermarket cams for the M44 and maybe if we like the power bump we'll buy some of their cams?;)

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

John, is there any chance Metric would have this info and would share it with you? I'd imagine they have the specs since they make aftermarket cams for the M44 and maybe if we like the power bump we'll buy some of their cams?;)


I have thought about calling Metric but their degree profiles would be for higher rpm motors. Also I don't want to seem like I'm taking any business from them.

I'm looking too find that article on the M44. It is not about setting the cams back if they were stock and caused a bad idle it is setting them for performance.

John S

We are getting places with this thread. We have the M42 profile...5 degrees advance on the intake cam only. Very easy since there is no valve train and only a seat off valve check to adjust this:smile:

[familytruckster]

GRM had a project 318ti back in 1997...Few articles in 1997-1998...but they aren't online.
(Edit: For ****s and giggles I bought the backissues with the ti project)

Another thread here had this....

I spoke to Rennie at Redline BMW about this. He's really knowlegable on the M42/M44. He used to race a 318ti sponsored by Grassroots Motorsports magazine. In the race car he said they picked up 12 whp by advancing the intake cam and retarding the exhaust cam. He didn't recall how much adjustment was made, but it sounded moderate. This adjustment increases overlap, which, in general, can be good for naturally aspirated cars. If I had an N/A M44 I would I would start with +2 intake and -2 exhaust and work from there.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

I've looked for about 2 hours and no joy. I'm still going to look until I find that article. It is a good article on the M44 by a BMW tech who made cam adjustments and showed the power improvements on the dyno.

I might just have to call Teddy at Metric and ask.

[mohaughn]

old thread here, with a little info on the BMW timing adjustment...

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21403


And I found this after searching for like 5 hours, and about 100 pages of google results...
From http://www.r3vlimited.com/tech/318is/318is.htm which I found here http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/e30-3-series-prior/112051-myth-m42-motors-cam-sprocket-adjustable-2.html



Also found some interesting info on the cam lockdown tool and how they did the advancement before the updated tools were made. I'm wondering if all the cams are the same between years. The one ppost I found said the techs used a 1mm drill bit on the alignment tool to advance the intake cam the 6*


I've done the cam timing and adjustments on my m42. I followed this advice to start and the results were not that good. Pretty much eliminated all low end torque for top end horsepower. Not really a good trade off for acceleration.. I think the final setup we settled on was retarding the exhaust cam slightly. Currently my car makes around 124ft/lb at 4300RPM and 129HP at 6500RPM on a dynojet. The next time the valve cover is off I'll get the exact details on how the cams are timed..

I should be getting it back in for some more dyno tuning soon to see if I can shift the torque a little higher in the RPM range and we will be messing with the cams first and then dialing in fuel once we are happy with the changes the cams make. All in all doing the cam change alone did not produce more power, just changed the power curve.


Update-
I found a thread where i was discussing this a few years ago with RobJohnson over on bimmerforums. I believe Rob used to work for Bimmerworld, and he was the only person I found that actually had experience doing the cam adjustments on a dyno. Based on this, I have to say that is was the intake cam that we backed off a little bit, not the exhaust as I previously said. Hopefully in the next month or two I can get it measured to know for sure- http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1288091

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Excellent post. Can you get the valve lift off seat measurement for both the exhaust and intake valves; at piston TDC, on overlap stroke. This will tell me the exact settings I'm looking for on the M42. I never liked the 5 degrees advance on intake spec for a solid power band Thanks, John S

I've done the cam timing and adjustments on my m42. I followed this advice to start and the results were not that good. Pretty much eliminated all low end torque for top end horsepower. Not really a good trade off for acceleration.. I think the final setup we settled on was retarding the exhaust cam slightly. Currently my car makes around 124ft/lb at 4300RPM and 129HP at 6500RPM on a dynojet. The next time the valve cover is off I'll get the exact details on how the cams are timed..

I should be getting it back in for some more dyno tuning soon to see if I can shift the torque a little higher in the RPM range and we will be messing with the cams first and then dialing in fuel once we are happy with the changes the cams make. All in all doing the cam change alone did not produce more power, just changed the power curve.


Update-
I found a thread where i was discussing this a few years ago with RobJohnson over on bimmerforums. I believe Rob used to work for Bimmerworld, and he was the only person I found that actually had experience doing the cam adjustments on a dyno. Based on this, I have to say that is was the intake cam that we backed off a little bit, not the exhaust as I previously said. Hopefully in the next month or two I can get it measured to know for sure- http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1288091

[familytruckster]

Well, I got my back issues of GRM with the ti project car. No cam info, but they did find that it was difficult to get more power out of the m44.

[projekt EPiK]

excellent info guys. i had an m44 apart replacing the headgasket a few weeks ago and was surprised to see the oem adjustable cam sprockets. was going to tweak, but this was the first bmw engine i was into so i didnt chance it. i have done many other builds though, and have a degree wheel setup so i may play with it.

wish i had more to contribute, i'll be playing with my 95 ti's m42 i have a feeling though

[hornet53]

Hi All I am currently racing a 318ti in the UK. It is currently running 145bhp @ 6250, 110bhp at the wheels and 135lbf.ft @ 4520, (I have access to a very accurate dyno, be careful of some quoted power figures on the net). The engine is very std to comply with our regs. The only mod that has been worth while is modding the inlet similar to the fogged version going around the internet. Just a quick note on this be VERY careful where you cut holes in the air box as you will change the resonance and Kill power at 5500ish(I know from experience!). Also I have removed the cat with a 2.25" OD pipe and it made very little difference to performance! I am also running a cat back system. I have been reading your posts about cam timing with interest! So far I have tried advancing the inlet, retarding the inlet, advancing the exhaust and retarding the exhaust. The best gains have been from advancing the inlet about 6/7 degs. It gave good gains from 2000 - 4000, (up to 6lbs.ft and 3bhp) This is great for the road but not very helpful for a race car. I have all the dyno charts for this but they have my details on them, so until I edit them I won't put them up as I don't want displayed yet. Another word of warning...be very carefully when retarding the exhaust cam, as I think I had some valve / piston contact with a modest decrease of exhaust valve timing (-4/5 degs). Also, a 2 deg shift in either exhaust or inlet timing can cost you 10bhp, so make sure all your work is dyno tested as these engines are sensitive to pulse tuning when adjusting cam timing. I do not have lift @TDC figures yet which will be more accurate as I don't have adapters for my dial indicators for this engine yet (im working on it!).

[familytruckster]

Great info.

Would you consider sharing the airbox mod info?

[mohaughn]

Hi All I am currently racing a 318ti in the UK. It is currently running 145bhp @ 6250, 110bhp at the wheels and 135lbf.ft @ 4520, (I have access to a very accurate dyno, be careful of some quoted power figures on the net). The engine is very std to comply with our regs. The only mod that has been worth while is modding the inlet similar to the fogged version going around the internet. Just a quick note on this be VERY careful where you cut holes in the air box as you will change the resonance and Kill power at 5500ish(I know from experience!). Also I have removed the cat with a 2.25" OD pipe and it made very little difference to performance! I am also running a cat back system. I have been reading your posts about cam timing with interest! So far I have tried advancing the inlet, retarding the inlet, advancing the exhaust and retarding the exhaust. The best gains have been from advancing the inlet about 6/7 degs. It gave good gains from 2000 - 4000, (up to 6lbs.ft and 3bhp) This is great for the road but not very helpful for a race car. I have all the dyno charts for this but they have my details on them, so until I edit them I won't put them up as I don't want displayed yet. Another word of warning...be very carefully when retarding the exhaust cam, as I think I had some valve / piston contact with a modest decrease of exhaust valve timing (-4/5 degs). Also, a 2 deg shift in either exhaust or inlet timing can cost you 10bhp, so make sure all your work is dyno tested as these engines are sensitive to pulse tuning when adjusting cam timing. I do not have lift @TDC figures yet which will be more accurate as I don't have adapters for my dial indicators for this engine yet (im working on it!).

What kind of dyno? There really is no such thing as an accurate dyno, they will all read differently based on a whole slew of different things... Like you said though, the most important thing is using the same dyno, and testing all of your changes. I've not testing all of the different cam settings on my car, but with the current power output, I'm guessing we have it in the sweet spot, or pretty close.

I'm making 129rwhp max at 6600 RPM on a dynojet at 80degrees ambient temp and probably 75-85% humidity with 93octane,(r+m)/2 E10. The car has been running so well, and I had a chance to have Randy Mueller with Epic motorsports look at my dyno graphs and AFR plots, and he said to not even mess with it anymore because he doesn't think there is much more left in just tuning. Not bad for a motor with 156k miles, over 35k of which has been track miles..

[hornet53]

What kind of dyno? There really is no such thing as an accurate dyno, they will all read differently based on a whole slew of different things... Like you said though, the most important thing is using the same dyno, and testing all of your changes. I've not testing all of the different cam settings on my car, but with the current power output, I'm guessing we have it in the sweet spot, or pretty close. I'm making 129rwhp max at 6600 RPM on a dynojet at 80degrees ambient temp and probably 75-85% humidity with 93octane,(r+m)/2 E10. The car has been running so well, and I had a chance to have Randy Mueller with Epic motorsports look at my dyno graphs and AFR plots, and he said to not even mess with it anymore because he doesn't think there is much more left in just tuning. Not bad for a motor with 156k miles, over 35k of which has been track miles.. 129rwhp....Like I said don't believe some dyno figures on the internet. Yes there is such a thing as an accurate dyno, how do you the motor companies come up with these figures? I work for a company who sells, installs and calibrate's dyno's, so I have a good idea when a dyno is accurate. I can assure you, if you put your car on BMW's dyno it wouldn't read 129rwhp without any serious mods. I'm not going into the reasons why your figure is not accurate but you should try a different dyno not made by the same company. Btw...I am not having a dig at you :smile:

[mohaughn]

Dynojet is what my sanctioning org requires me to use, NASA. The purpose of the dyno for NASA is comparison between cars. And it seems to work pretty well as the cars in my class seem to be comparable wt/hp, and some of the cars are identical weight, and have almost identical dyno power numbers from a dynojet.

No need to get it dyno'd on any other machine or type of machine as I really have no interest in doing internet, my number is higher kind of things. However, given that I gave exactly what kind of setup I used, it gives a reference point. If you think a dynojet reads high compared to whatever you used, that is fine. Dyno numbers are subjective, i'm not arguing that and this really isn't a dyno thread discussion. My car has cam timing adjustments, custom tune, no cat, cat back exhaust, ltw pulleys, no ac, and the fuel I mentioned. Good power was found by increasing the fueling and timing to take advantage of the E10 fuel we get here.

You never really said what kind of dyno, or how you determined engine horsepower. 110BHP at the wheels does seem kind of low though for the higher end street fuel that we get here in the US, so it must be that every US based dyno of any 318ti is about 10hp high.. :)

Most people put the drivetrain loss on these cars somewhere around 18%. So not sure how you got from 110 to 145bhp. I would only put my bhp at right around 150 using 18% as the drivetrain loss. So your bhp is pretty close to mine, but your factoring in a lot more drivetrain loss. And 135ft/lb, that is damn good, guessing it is also an adjusted crank number?

[hornet53]

Unfortunately this thread has turned into a discussion about dyno's which is irrelevant so lets just agree to differ. For those who are interested in cam timing... (So far I have tried advancing the inlet, retarding the inlet, advancing the exhaust and retarding the exhaust. The best gains have been from advancing the inlet about 6/7 degs. It gave good gains from 2000 - 4000, (up to 6lbs.ft and 3bhp), those are my findings based solely on adjusting the cam timing not a rwhp figure based on an engine thats had several modifications including cam timing.

[mohaughn]

Not really sure what we are disagreeing on. Seemed like you were trying to say that the dyno I used probably read high, and I'm not arguing against that. Like I said, dyno's are subjective and without taking more than just the dyno number into account, it doesn't really mean that much. I don't calibrate dyno's and I have no clue the last time, if ever, the dyno I used was calibrated. So it could very well be off, no arguments from me on that. However, I always use the same dyno, so at least the power curve and any change to it is still relevant data.

Back on subject...

In your testing did you find any cam changes that would improve the torque up over 4800RPM? Torque drops off on my car once the DISA opens up. We never pursued doing more with CAM timing as I can't justify the expense right now as it doesn't seem like I can push the torque curve up higher due to the DISA valve and dual intake. I'd give up some peak horsepower if I could get my torque curve up a bit. With my final gear and tire size, I'm at about 4500 to 4700 when shifting into a higher gear, which is just at the tail end of peak torque. Improvements below 5k RPM won't help my car at all unfortunately.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Unfortunately this thread has turned into a discussion about dyno's which is irrelevant so lets just agree to differ. For those who are interested in cam timing... (So far I have tried advancing the inlet, retarding the inlet, advancing the exhaust and retarding the exhaust. The best gains have been from advancing the inlet about 6/7 degs. It gave good gains from 2000 - 4000, (up to 6lbs.ft and 3bhp), those are my findings based solely on adjusting the cam timing not a rwhp figure based on an engine thats had several modifications including cam timing.



6/7 degrees on the intake. Would this just be slam it all the way advanced? I thought you could only go 6 degrees advance/retard from center, could be wrong.

Thanks, John S

[familytruckster]

Any more info? Would love to get a few more free hp out of my POS.

[juan.manjarres]

Back from the dead!

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

I need only 2 things to do a test camshaft degree on your car. I still need the valve off seat measurement and I still need to crush a lifter and weld it completely closed for it to be accurate on all installs.

Biggest issue is the correct cam degree so we are not doing degree settings that will hinder performance. Once the cams are degreed correctly for max performance then we take the valve off seat measurement for all other members to use the kit I have made.

It is really a numbers game currently. If I could get best cam degree from a reliable source I would set a car up with it and then pull my lift of seat numbers...Once I have those items the kit is ready to be loaned out for members to degree their cams

John S

[spidertri]

John, just thinking out loud here, would you be able to take these measurements relatively easily if someone brought their stock ti to you?

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

John, just thinking out loud here, would you be able to take these measurements relatively easily if someone brought their stock ti to you?


I can take measurements off any motor. Issue is I need one already setup with the performance cam degree so I can measure those and then people can set their own cams to the same setting

[familytruckster]

Did kinda sound like you just slam the intake cam all the way over from the one post...

too bad these things have a chain vs a belt... easier to do changes and mod the timing cover for quick adjustments to the cams. Though I'd also be worried about PTV interference too....

[juan.manjarres]

Been looking around, nothing :|

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

I read a article from a BMW tech and did it on a dyno and had the exact cam degree number from stock to make the most power. He gained like 13hp. It was something I read in maybe 2008 and I can't find the article now. It was very detailed with dyno graphs and exact cam deg during the dyno pulls.

If I could only find that we would be all set for N/A motors. I already have the degreeing for any supercharged or turbo car. It has almost no overlap so the boost doesn't blow out the exhaust valve. This will make a good difference on any boosted I-4 M44.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Did kinda sound like you just slam the intake cam all the way over from the one post...

too bad these things have a chain vs a belt... easier to do changes and mod the timing cover for quick adjustments to the cams. Though I'd also be worried about PTV interference too....


I asked that poster about some things and I don't think his suggestion is good. What he suggests doesn't work out in cam degree and the intake cam in that direction and no exhaust correct on a N/A motor will be a failure. That is why I've ignored the suggestion and not cranked a intake cam all the way over. We need real information not guesses.

[spidertri]

Was it this thread john?
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21403

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Was it this thread john?
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21403

Although that is informative it is not the one. I think that is for M42. This was a BMW tech article and showed the exact cam deg on exhaust/intake and dyno graphs for each change on the M44.

Keep looking and suggesting things, we might just need to figure it out by ourselves but if we found that article it would save a bunch of work.

Sorry, John S

[spidertri]

Found a link for the M42 saying advancing the intake 5deg is the best setting.
http://bmwnut.blogspot.com/2006/04/1991-e30-bmw-318is-performance-mods.html

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

Found a link for the M42 saying advancing the intake 5deg is the best setting.
http://bmwnut.blogspot.com/2006/04/1991-e30-bmw-318is-performance-mods.html

Yes plenty of M42, we are looking for a M44. If you want to do a M42 I will be glad and send you the tools so you can complete the job, I know boosted cam timing too.

[Jean H.318TI]

i have an m42 boosted now ;)

[juan.manjarres]

Come on people lets push to find these M44 cam adjustment specs.

[familytruckster]

I spent days searching....I bought back issues of grm that had the ti project car, poked at the guys that worked on it...nobody remembered the specs.

I don't have the time and money to spend on hours of dyno time yanking my motor apart repeatedly to adjust the cams...I'd consider donating some money for someone to do that though.

[spidertri]

I've found some threads where guys were discussing getting power out of the M44 for the SCCA ITA class a few years ago. They all talk about intakes and exhausts but not about the cams (which had to stay stock).

There doesn't seem to be a forum dedicated to the compact cup that I can find. Those guys have to have done some playing around with it.

John, do you remember any other details about that article you found? Was it from a non-US source, on a forum, on a blog, did it seem like an official bmw reference?

[familytruckster]

Yeah, the SCCA ITA class was what the GRM ti was run in. I'm sure someone adjusted the cams, the cams were stock, however there is adjustment in the factory gears... sooo.. One of those non discussed but everyone did grey mods.....And one nobody wants to discuss because of giving away a performance secret/advantage.

[juan.manjarres]

Been looking around all day today... No luck :(

[spidertri]

I'm sure someone adjusted the cams, the cams were stock, however there is adjustment in the factory gears... sooo.. One of those non discussed but everyone did grey mods.....And one nobody wants to discuss because of giving away a performance secret/advantage.

Well, that's what I meant by the cams had to stay stock. If they could have gone aftermarket then it wouldn't apply to us with stock stuff.

[juan.manjarres]

We should revive this.

[juan.manjarres]

John would the cam gear adjustment be the same between an m44 and m42?

[fast_frizz]

I have an M42 318ti that I am trying to find some more horses in. Since I use this car primarily at track-events, the high-end power bump is tempting. The car usually spends most of its time between 3500 and 6500 rpm anyway.

Spiderti - can you provide links to the SCCA threads you mentioned?

[spidertri]

I don't have links (or remember) the threads I originally found but I just searched google for "scca ita bmw m44" and found a bunch.

Some of these threads contain ti hate, reader beware.:frown:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18797
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235912
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520534

[hornet53]

I read a article from a BMW tech and did it on a dyno and had the exact cam degree number from stock to make the most power. He gained like 13hp. It was something I read in maybe 2008 and I can't find the article now. It was very detailed with dyno graphs and exact cam deg during the dyno pulls.

If I could only find that we would be all set for N/A motors. I already have the degreeing for any supercharged or turbo car. It has almost no overlap so the boost doesn't blow out the exhaust valve. This will make a good difference on any boosted I-4 M44.


I have done some more cam timing work on these engines and you are not going to gain 13bhp by adjusting the cam timing, unless, the engine was not setup properly in the first place. Moving the cam timing will only move the power / torque curve up and down the RPM range. BMW would not waste 13bhp like that. If you have had a head skim or other work that moves the valve timing, then you must reset your cams.

There is no information on the Compact Cup forum about this as it is a new series and racers wouldn't give this information up to their competitors anyway.

[mulholland]

I have done some more cam timing work on these engines and you are not going to gain 13bhp by adjusting the cam timing, unless, the engine was not setup properly in the first place. Moving the cam timing will only move the power / torque curve up and down the RPM range. BMW would not waste 13bhp like that. If you have had a head skim or other work that moves the valve timing, then you must reset your cams.

There is no information on the Compact Cup forum about this as it is a new series and racers wouldn't give this information up to their competitors anyway.

Do you have any quantitative data/empirical evidence showing the gains/losses you experience? You stated previously you had done extensive testign and would post dyno's after you removed your personal information from them... those could prove helpful. I would even venture to say one could use a pretty simple engine simulaion program to run the gambit of intake/exhaust cam timing adjustments and find the highest peak yield...


As you stated (though it sounded like a basic understanding of the situation) the cam timing will move the torque curve.... when you move a torque curve up, you make more power. If you made 100tq at 4,000rpm vs 100tq at 8,000rpm, you would only be making half as much horsepower at 4000rpm. The idea being that in a tracked/performance driven car, you need the power down low much less, as with each sequential shift up, you never drop down to that portion of the rev range, making it dead space under your desired power band after getting the car going in 1st gear.

BMW would ABSOLUTELY "waste" 13hp like that for the sake of having a car with a rock steady idle, emissions, and desirable fuel consumption. On the contrary, a performance minded person with a one track mind would take 5mpg, dump plumes of soot, idle like a top fuel dragster, and sell his soul to get the edge and make the extra power where he needs it. If you think they didn't give up power and make compromises for a street car engine, any engine, you're kidding yourself.

[fast_frizz]

spiderti - thanks for posting. Especially the second one was interesting. I am considering a lighter exhaust, but it seems that most places I read about people trying different exhaust, it typically harms performance (lighter, though)

[derek502]

I have a quick question, I just removed the head on a M44 Z3 because the head gasket was blown. I removed the cam sprocket from the camshafts. I marked the cams/sprockets but how critical is it to have the cams perfect on the sprockets? I do not have the cam lock down tool.

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

I have done some more cam timing work on these engines and you are not going to gain 13bhp by adjusting the cam timing, unless, the engine was not setup properly in the first place. Moving the cam timing will only move the power / torque curve up and down the RPM range. BMW would not waste 13bhp like that. If you have had a head skim or other work that moves the valve timing, then you must reset your cams.

There is no information on the Compact Cup forum about this as it is a new series and racers wouldn't give this information up to their competitors anyway.

You must be working on the M44 motor. They had a ruff idle so to solve the problem they changed the cam timing which detuned the car for a smooth idle. This is a 4-cylinder and people who drive I-4's expect a smooth idle they don't car about preformance.

Please speak up if I'm wrong. Also we are working with dual cams so the cam tune could be done to create more power without changing the torque curve. You will have a ruffer idle due to additional overlap on the cam timing profile.

If you don't work specifically with M44 motors they please refrain from stating what worked on another motor you might have worked on. If you are the M44 master then share your results please so I can be proven wrong. I do admit I'm not always right and I'm willing to learn something new each day.

My information came from a BMW mechanic and I just don't think the web page with the specs is active anymore.

I have all the tools to do this right and will lend them to site supporters free you pay shipping both ways.

I just need the specs and a stock motor so I can make a instructional video to go with the kit.

John Smith

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

I have a quick question, I just removed the head on a M44 Z3 because the head gasket was blown. I removed the cam sprocket from the camshafts. I marked the cams/sprockets but how critical is it to have the cams perfect on the sprockets? I do not have the cam lock down tool.

If it is a head off a different car then you need a cam lock tool or a modified dial indicator to measure valve off seat to set them right.

Best of luck, John S

[derek502]

i was able to borrow the cam tool.the intake cam was dead on and the exhauste cam was very close. thanks for the reply.

[pdxmotorhead]

I have a quick question, I just removed the head on a M44 Z3 because the head gasket was blown. I removed the cam sprocket from the camshafts. I marked the cams/sprockets but how critical is it to have the cams perfect on the sprockets? I do not have the cam lock down tool.

You need them on pretty accurately. A small offset will either add power or tank it... Crap shoot. I'd get it together then find a motor guy to help degree the cams back in. The adjustment on teh M42 is about 1 tooth...

Dave

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

You need them on pretty accurately. A small offset will either add power or tank it... Crap shoot. I'd get it together then find a motor guy to help degree the cams back in. The adjustment on teh M42 is about 1 tooth...

Dave

He borrowed a cam locking tool and finished the job.

My understanding is there is 6 degrees of cam adjustment per cam. 3 degrees either way from center of the sprocket. Just what I've been told

I have never used a degree wheel on my car so I'm not 100% on the 6 degrees just a very reliable source told me that. I set my cams by valve off seat measurements with a dial indicator. Easier then setting up a degree wheel and much more accurate since it will give accurate cam timing with a streched chain and worn parts. The cam locking tool does not account for those worn items. This is how Metric does there cams and taught me how to do it.

John Smith

[pdxmotorhead]

6 sounds very close, I wish I'd measured the slot more closely when I had the cover off my M42. But the tooth to tooth spacing was about even with the length of the adjustment slot.

I degree cams similar way, use the valve not the cam lobe. 2 pin dial indicators one for the piston one for the valve. Haven't done the M42, usually working on a Cosworth Twin cam engine in a midget. We have a hand cut front pulley that matches the crank to the cam belt pulley (Corrected for about 1.5 degrees error in the keyway).

One of the downsides of a belt driven cam set is the belt stretch at 11000 rpm's... :)

Dave

[xxxJohnBoyxxx]

When I did my head gasket I changed the cam degree a little taking out more overlap (Only needed on a FI car or car that wants more low end torque). The results on the butt dyno are more low end torque and much more torque when the turbo hits. How much I don't know but I would think maybe 5hp

[chzman]

ok, so I removed the head this weekend. ('97 M44) Head going to shop this week to be serviced. Car going to speed shop to have head installed as I do not have the tools to do it. I know this shop has done head gasket replacements on bmw, so that i'm comfortable with. i'm not sure if they have ever done this. what do i tell them i want done? *this both my first BMW (first non american, period) and first time using FI rather than raw horse power.

[hornet53]

Hello again. I have been away from this page as I didn't want to give out any current engine tweaks while I was racing. I'm not racing any more and the regulations have changed. So here goes. My M44 which was fairly standard was running 161bhp. This was with a rebuilt, fully blueprinted bottom end. The cam timing I was using was 106/106 deg and that worked very well. My friend who is a well known engine tuner was running 105/107 deg.

If you would like info on compression ratios and head skimming for this engine you will need to PM me.

Thanks

[martynjames]

http://www.catcams.com/engines/camshaft-setup.aspx

jam bmw in the left and click on m44, it has heaps, i dont know much but is this what your looking for????

[martynjames]

has numbers like this(tbh ima noob just trying to help)
255°/248° - 217°/209° - 10.50mm/10.00mm - 1.45mm/0.45mm

[bluoval6]

As much as I hate to bring a thread back from the dead...
Has anyone ever made progress with this idea?

Scott

[J!m]

Once you find a "sweet spot" you can have a cam holding fixture with skewed slot on one side to hold the cam at the correct angle before tightening the sprocket...

[bluoval6]

Makes sense. I was wondering, though, if anyone has tried this and found where that "sweet spot" might be. I'll be doing a valve cover gasket soon and might tweak a little to see what happens. I'm surprised this thread died, this mod is about as low-buck as it gets.

Scott

[maverick]

Makes sense. I was wondering, though, if anyone has tried this and found where that "sweet spot" might be. I'll be doing a valve cover gasket soon and might tweak a little to see what happens. I'm surprised this thread died, this mod is about as low-buck as it gets.



Scott



Seems a lot of newer owners just jump from the M42/44 to slapping a 6-cylinder in these cars. Sadly in my opinion they lose their wonderful balance with the added weight all going forward with those 2 cylinders.



I am selling my DASC right now but had planned to adjust the cams as part of tuning for more efficient power. For supercharged power you want as minimal overlap as possible so that the blower doesn't blow fuel/air through and out the exhaust.



For scavenging and better power naturally aspirated you want to optimize it.

[spidertri]

I spent a lot of time and effort getting the cam degree dial indicator from Johnboy and talking to UK guys who run in the UK Compact Cup. While they all had some information there wasn't a consensus as to "just set your cams at xx deg and you'll be good". It was more along the lines of, if you have a bunch of dyno time you can play with the cams and see where the sweet spot is for your engine.

For guys racing competitively, with sponsors and a rulebook limiting them to stock parts, it pays dividends to optimize their motor as much as possible.