bad starter maybe?

[robcarync]

well...in the last few months...on my car...ive had a guibo replaced, an o2 sensor replaced, brakes replaced, inspection II service done, rear differential seal replaced, radiator hoses replaced, and a few other repairs done that i cant remember.

now my car is having trouble starting. i think its the starter (so does my dad and mom). but basically i turn the key, and it rolls over, but the engine doesnt get turned on. its a bad description i know, but its like trying to crank a car with a dead battery.

any way...assuming it is the starter...how hard is this going to be to replace, or should i take it to a mechanic (forget the dealership...im done with those goons). im only a beginner mechanic...but my dad has replaced the starter on previous cars (jap cars though)...so he has some auto experience. would this be terribly difficult to do it ourselves?

so i guess...anyone know where i can find a write up on how to change a starter?

anyone else have any ideas as to what else could cause this problem? i dont want to invest in a starter, and still have a problem cranking it. is there a sure fire way to tell if it is, in fact, the starter thats causing the problem?

[brucelee]

You say it "rolls over." Does that mean the starter is turning but the engine won't fire? If the starter is functioning, is it turning more slowly than normal?

I assume you have checked the battery charge?

[bimmerboi318]

yeah i'd say have the battery tested if you havent yet. sounds like the most likely cause. and whenever you start it, push in the clutch even if it's in neutral. there's just less stuff to turn. (mine starts without pushing in the clutch, not sure if its normal or not)

[robcarync]

actually, i have not yet checked the battery...i forgot to mention i just put a new battery in less than 6 months ago...i dont think its possible for a battery to die so quickly.

mine is auto :( so i have no clutch to push in.

it lets me turn the key all the way you normally would when you start a car...and it sounds like its about to start...but the second you think you are about to hear the engine start up, it doesnt start.

it sounds very much like a dead battery, but i would assume its not the battery since i just got a new one recently.

[brucelee]

Batteries can die for lots of reasons. If the starter is turning over slowly, likely the battery. If it doesnt turn over at all, maybe the starter.

Repair shop can tell in about 5 minutes.

[robcarync]

its not turning over slowly. im pretty certain it is the starter now.

does anyone know where i can find a writeup on how to change a starter?

[robcarync]

its not turning over slowly. im pretty certain it is the starter now.

does anyone know where i can find a writeup on how to change a starter?

are there any more parts that could possibly lead to trouble cranking the car?

the dealer ship (aka $tealership...i finially undersand why they are called that) want 475ish to change a starter, yet the local german mechanic will do it for 350. pretty large difference there.

a new starter costs around 200 or so...so i figue ill either figure out how to do it myself or just take it to the local mechanic.

[bimmerboi318]

its not turning slowly? well i'd say the starter is fine. its doing its job if its cranking at the right speed. if its not FIRING up right away, it could be a couple things. possibly low fuel pressure. possible worn spark plugs. try turning the key on and off a couple times before you start it to build up fuel pressure. or check a spark plug. or maybe the car is just racking up some miles and it takes a little longer to start.

btw just because a battery is new doesnt mean its good :) ive seen a couple brand new ones that were bad. but if its not cranking slow, it should be ok.

[robcarync]

well i just go an Inspection II service which should have replaced all four spark plugs and all that. ill try the fuel pressure thing next time...

i dunno i hope the car hasnt bit the dust already. im just gonna get it to a mechanic to check for a starter for peace of mind...maybe they can figure out what is up with it.

its so frusterating...i love this car so much, yet everytime i turn around something on it is breaking and needs work. i wish the car would just work at least for a while without needing repairs.

the previous owner had all records and it was never in the shop this much...looks like i bought it at the time that everything was about to break :(

[Phil Marx]

Is it possible you started the car cold and moved it a short distance then shut it off? That happened to me once shortly after I got my ti and though I know what a bad starter sounds like, the sound the ti made not starting with fouled plugs sounded like it was spinning but not turning the engine. Almost as if it was turning over with no plugs in or no compression. At that time I took the plugs out, cleaned them with carb cleaner, dried them with compressed air, put them back in and it fired right up. I lived the next weeks in fear of starting and moving the car a short distance until I realized that if this happened all I had to do was floor the gas pedal while cranking and it always started and cleared itself right up. If you've been having this problem for a while and you've been cranking it without it starting, you may want to try flooring it while you crank and if it starts go out for along drive. If it won't start, try removing the plugs and cleaning them. Be careful not to overtorque them and use the little tool under the plastic spark plug cover to remove the wires without damaging them. Everything you need should be in your tool kit. Good luck.

[robcarync]

starter is spinning (not slow) ... but the motor isnt turning over.

my dad says its like the starter isnt engaging the flywheel to turn the motor on. he siad he can hear the starter motor spinning...but the engine doesnt even start to turn over.

does this sound like a starter problem to you guys?

like i said...i dont know much about cars...so my descriptions arent very good...listen to what my pops said above ^^^

phil mentioned cleaning spark plugs...i just got all spark plugs replaced about two montsh ago...so i wouldnt think they need cleaning.

[brucelee]

Yes, if it is not engaging, you need to get someone down there to figure out how this is happening.

Could be broken teeth on either flywheel or starter or simply the starter got loose and disengaged.

[bimmerboi318]

wow i must have read something wrong. so its not even turning the engine at all? the starter itself must be spinning pretty darn fast :) if the starter isnt engaging at ALL then i'd have to say its a starter problem. a big question is, did it ever grind at some point when trying to start it? if it didnt, you MAY be able to get away with just replacing the starter. if it did grind while starting it for awhile, the ring gear on the flywheel (or flex plate in your case since its an auto) could be chipped or broken. its kind of funny how this came up because that happened to my 280zx and this weekend i am putting the new parts in. its a pain in the butt because i had to get the new flexplate and ring gear, which in order to replace, the transmission has to come out of the car. so it will be a good weekend for me.

[Phil Marx]

M42/M44 engines can "flood" or foul the spark plugs very easily, even if the plugs are new. What I asked was did you start the car cold and shut it off very soon after, like moving it only a short distance in a driveway before this no-start situation? If your Dad actually opened the hood and saw the engine not turning while the starter was operating, you have either a starter or a ring-gear problem. If it only SOUNDS like the starter isn't turning the engine over, humor me and clean the plugs. What have you got to lose at this point if the car isn't running and you're about to tow it to a shop. Save the tow and check the plugs. These starters are strange and their sound is whimpy if the engine isn't firing during starter operation. Read my previous description. Sometimes we have a semantic problem with the terms "turning over", "firing", and "catching". Just trying to help!

[robcarync]

well phill...the day it started doing this was the day we were going to flush the radiator...we moved it from the driveway to the street and back to the driveway again...so yes it was moved a short distance...interesting tid bit of information...i may have to check those spark plugs.

another random tidbit of information...it doesnt happen EVERY time...usually the engine will fire up after a few tries...sometimes it cranks first try...somtimes second....sometimes third...

and as of now, my dad has not actually looked at the engine...he just said it sounded like the flywheel wasnt turning...ill be sure to pass that information along to him...hopefully this will work phil.

and bimmerboi...you probably didnt read anything wrong...i just cant really give good descriptions because...well...as you know i dont really know what im talking about here...really the only stuff i know about my car is the stuff ive had to fix myself...so as i havent looked at this stuff yet, i dont know much about it.

also phil is correct when talking about semantic problems with terms such as turning over, firing, and catching and such...they can be kind of vague.

and i havent heard any grinding while trying to start it.

as of now...my situation seems to be remarkably similar to phils situation. although im not sure what relation starting the car for a short distance has to dirty spark plugs...but i shall definently check that out...it would be a nice way to save 400 dollars

[robcarync]

im actually going to recant the last statement about i did start it and turn it off real fast after moving a short distance...it was having trouble before that. i still moved it a short distance...but by then it was already having trouble.

[Phil Marx]

Now I'm confused. Not to beat this dead horse any further, but can you start this car now or not? Is this an ocassional problem as in it works fine sometime and other times not? Then it's likely your starter, not fouled plugs. If you don't understand how plugs get fouled then you probably don't understand how much fuel is sprayed into your combustion chamber during cold starts.

[robcarync]

i dont understand much at all...

but i did mention it is an occasional problem...sometimes it takes a few tries to start but if im persistant i can usually get it cranked up...like it rarely starts first try (but does sometimes)... usually after 3 or so tries i can get it running.

and i understand how plugs can get fouled...i just didnt quite understand why it would only happen if i drove it a short distance vs. a long distance.

but anyway...im sorry for all this confusion...lets get the final synopisis here...

sounds like starter motor is not engaging the flywheel....i can get the car cranked...but it just takes several tries...

i really could have solved a lot of confusion if i just said that one sentence...but like i previously stated....i know nothing about cars...so i really didnt know exactly what i was talking about until my pops told me about what it sounded like to him.

thanks for putting up with my complete and utter ignorance to automotive repair...like i said...i really only know about the stuff ive had to fix myself (o2 sensor, brakes, radiator hoses, flush radiator, etc...) its a learning process here...something breaks on my car...i dont know what in the world is going on...i learn some stuff...and learn to fix it!

so are we all in accord that it sounds like starter here?

[bmwracefan]

BAD FUEL PUMP RELAY....check for battery voltage at relay socket 30

[motorsport]

Definately, do a fuel pressure test. It is very likely you have a faulty fuel pump, which would be simple to fix if you have proper tools.

[ddiorio1313]

It is not your starter.....My car does the same thing sometimes and you just got to hold it there it will turn over...Maybe give it a little gas.... I read on another thread somewhere here that if you have slow starts check something with your throttle cable or some crap like that, can't really remember...

[Tyler]

If your battery was dead your car wouldn't even crank over. So i don't think it's your battery

[Tyler]

It is not your starter.....My car does the same thing sometimes and you just got to hold it there it will turn over...Maybe give it a little gas.... I read on another thread somewhere here that if you have slow starts check something with your throttle cable or some crap like that, can't really remember...

If you give your car gas it will flood the engine. Your not supposed to do that with fuel injected cars.

[robcarync]

just got to hold it there it will turn over

if i hold the key in the ignition, (which is what im assuming you mean), it will not crank...you just hear the 'whirrrrrrr' sound from the starter motor spinning and spinning and spinning but not turning anything. again this is what it sounds like...i havent had a chance to really check anything out...but on the times it doesnt crank...if you hold the key it will not start eventually...you just hear the starter spinning until you turn the key back off and try again.

i think i know what you mean though because it has happened in the past that sometimes you turn the key and nothing happens but if you continue to hold the key, the engine will crank after a little delay...but this is different...you turn the key and nothing happens no matter how long you hold the key.

so far ive ruled out battery and spark plugs...ill have to check into the fuel pump relay...im pretty sure the cars gonna be going to the shop...im still thinking its a starter but id feel more comfortable just letting a professional check it out.

[ddiorio1313]

Tyler...Funny you say that..I was going to make a comment about that "It will Flood it is fuel injected" That should be true, but I have done it plenty of times and it helps...My Girlfriends Cherokee's battery went dead the other day and I tried and tried to jump no Luck, but sure enough when I gave it a little gas when turning the key whammo it fired right up...I would assume that you would need to slam on the gas quite a bit before it would just flood out....? Not sure though..

[Phil Marx]

I tried to suggest this about ten massages ago! Think about it: When you floor the "gas" pedal in a modern fuel-injected car what are you really doing? Right! Opening up the throttle so more air gets in! The injection rate is dependent upon air mass or air flow, but that's after you get the damn thing started! Now go back to the beginning and read everything again! <G>

I'm beginning to buy into the fuel pressure regulator theory if this is a common occurance upon starting for you.

[bimmerboi318]

flooding shouldnt be TOO much of an issue with our cars. they might load up a bit if you give a little gas while starting and cause it to flood a little bit. however, holding the pedal wide open during startup does the complete opposite. it actually activates a flood clear mode and does not add any fuel at all. it results in a similar effect as holding the gas wide open on a carburated car to clear it out, but is actually programed into the pcm or ecu or dme (forgot what we call it :-p)

[ddiorio1313]

Phil: Didn't want to repeat you I was just stating that you idea was good....and I have tried it and it works....

[twentysixknots]

For the past three months or so my car has been doing something that sounds exactly like what was going on here. First it just took two tries to start - the starter would begin turning the engine over then seem to disengage from the fly wheel and just spin. It got worse (taking 3-4 tries) then I replaced the battery and it got better - and for a few weeks it was fine, starting every time. Now for the past 2 weeks it's been much worse.. sometimes I have to try 10-12 times before it will start. Typically it turns over for a second or two then disengages and just spins the starter motor... I would have thought once the solenoid kicks in, I'm golden, but it's definately dropping out somehow. I have never been stranded, I just keep trying and eventually it starts, but it's getting worse. Funny thing is it starts every morning on the first try! Every day at lunch - trouble, and by the time I leave work it's taking 5-10 trys. It's like it works if it sits a long time - but less than 5 hours and I have problems. I bought a starter, but it looks like a nightmare to replace - I just want to know - was this thread a bad starter or something else.... THANKS!!!

UPDATE - I'm thinking it must be the starter because its gotten even worse of late - I actually have had to pop start it 4 or 5 times now. The thing I don't get is that it always starts first try in the AM - what could explain that?

[tybate]

robcarync, twentysixknots... What was the final outcome? I have the same EXACT problem. Did it end up being the starter? also,Can you just replace the solenoid? TIA

[bmvw]

Mine is failing similarly, the mechanic states it is a bad "bendix" but should fail slowly & I can put off the $400 repair for some time. Sometimes it also stays engaged for a split second after the motor runs & it grinds. The motor has to be lifted for access & 3 hr job. I forgot to ask if he's replacing just the bendix or the entire starter.

[twentysixknots]

this problem is on again off again, and after my last business trip, it's not given me a single problem in 2 weeks. So now I'm doubting the starter because I figure that would be just going down hill steady. It's been really cold recently though, which may be a confounding factor. Somthing in this thread talked about fuel pump, but I don't know about that either. At the moment I'm just using the car as normal every day with no problems.

By the way, I took a look at the Bosch replacement starter and my answer about the solenoid is - maybe but it will be difficult - there are 3 torx screws that you might be able to access with a really narrow head wratchet tool holding the solenoid in - if you can get the old one out with the starter in place, maybe you have a shot?

[tybate]

Well... At least I know i can put it off for awhile. I had originally thought fuel pump because of a supposed check valve acting up in cold weather. I guess that's not the case. It's starting to get frustrating because I'm trying to sell this ti. When people hear the whizzing they are like WTF!

[tybate]

Um... Maybe I shouldn't wait this one out.http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2646

[bmvw]

Yeah Mine is totally intermittent. A couple weeks go by with no problem then a couple grids in one day.

As far as the Datsun guy is concerned, a lot of manufacturer's starters are different. I have a Toyota Corolla that sometimes does not turn when the motor is red hot, but waiting for it to cool & is OK. It is probably on too tight or something. If the BMW mechanic says it can go for a while I believe him. He also says our motors are good for 300,000 miles if maintained properly & showed me a couple to prove it.

[twentysixknots]

Just to keep this up to date - not that it matters, but I had at least 4 months of perfect performance from the old starter, and as of yesterday the problem was back. 2 days now it's given the same problem - a click, maybe one crank then it spins free... 4-8 tries and it starts up. It's definately not grinding, just spinning the motor. We just had our first 80 degree day yesterday - maybe it's temperature related after all... .hmmm - I'm still not looking forward to getting in there - it looks like a beast to change the starter.

[bmvw]

getting to the starter is horrendous. Unless you got the tools (including engine hoist) I'd just bite the bullet & let a BMW place do it. 2-3 hrs + parts

[PittsburghSteelers318ti]

Are there any differences in changing a 1.8 liter engine starter as compare to the 1.9 L starter?
My issue is with my 1.8 L starter.
Does the 1.8 L engine starter really take up to 3 hours?

[angel318ti]

I have repaired starters, generators, fuel pumps and many fuel and electrical components in the army for the last 10 years. I can tell you that what you described is a bad solenoid on your starter. sometimes solenoids stick and wont allow it to fully engage the bendix to the flywheel. If you try and try to start it after it warms up a little it may actually allow it to work. but it will soon completely stop working. Too bad BMW dont really make any repair kits for starters. Autozone has starters for about $150.00. If you have never replaced one I suggest having someone else fix it for you. It's not hard but it can be overwhelming if you have never done it. Hope this helps.

[thesk8nmidget]

it is deff a big job may be good to get help from a buddy

[twentysixknots]

Angel318ti - I agree, it's got to be the solenoid, and only a matter of time before I can't start her at all. After looking into this job (I can barely see the starter to begin with) I am definately not doing it myself. Looks like the dealer's going to get a hold of my car after all... when I can save up enough to pay for it. This is going to hurt the pocket I can tell.

Hey by the way, thanks for your service to our country! God Bless America!

26k.