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View Full Version : 6 cylinder swap Vs. supercharger


DustenT
08-02-2005, 10:15 PM
Like the title says, lets get everything out on the table. Pros and Cons of doing the 6 cylinder swap vs. installing a supercharger. If you have one or the other, speak up and tell us what you like and don't like. Please include other necessary upgrades and maintenance costs if applicable.

stormos
08-02-2005, 10:26 PM
i'd imagine cost is a big issue. i personally want a e36 M50 next aswell as a manual transmission conversion. but first i am gonna abuse it for work motorway miles.... oh yeah, i also need to save a few k for the conversion.....

L84THSKY
08-03-2005, 03:01 AM
This whole engine swap thing gets very played out.

Not that it's a bad idea, but everyone likes to ask about it just to make their dick feel larger.

I agree on doing the supercharging route. If you didn't want a 4 cylinder, then why did you get a 318ti. With a supercharger, you get the best of both worlds, without the complexity of a full engine swap.


Like the title says, lets get everything out on the table. Pros and Cons of doing the 6 cylinder swap vs. installing a supercharger. If you have one or the other, speak up and tell us what you like and don't like. Please include other necessary upgrades and maintenance costs if applicable.

roadrash
08-03-2005, 03:58 AM
If you didn't want a 4 cylinder, then why did you get a 318ti.

I can name that tune in ONE note: $

Silver00spike
08-03-2005, 04:44 AM
Like the title says, lets get everything out on the table. Pros and Cons of doing the 6 cylinder swap vs. installing a supercharger. If you have one or the other, speak up and tell us what you like and don't like. Please include other necessary upgrades and maintenance costs if applicable.
according to your signature, you allready are supercharged

DustenT
08-03-2005, 11:50 AM
according to your signature, you allready are supercharged

OMG...Your right, I can't believe I forgot my car was supercharged. Thanks for the reminder! :tongue:

Please excuse the sarcasm, it's early. I started this thread to help some confused members, I won't say any names, who think swapping a 6 cylinder motor is a better idea than a supercharger. The engine swap is a lot more expensive than some people think and I was hoping to get some prices posted. Anyone??

Dredder
08-03-2005, 01:25 PM
Here’s the price comparison;
M3 swap = $6120 (professionally installed by bmw certified mechanics)
DASC = $3495 + installations
M3 engine and ecu and complete swap kit= < $4000 + you install

Power comparison
DASC = 210 bhp no room for improvement on stock internals
m3 = 240bhp you guys know what an M3 is capable of
If you didn't want a 4 cylinder, then why did you get a 318ti.
I can name that tune in ONE note: $
I don’t think the US version of the 318ti came with 6 cyl. I would not trade my 318ti for any E36 -E46 bmw out there, unless it’s an e46 M3. I love the way my 318ti looks. If the US market 318ti came with 6cyl I would have bought it, but unfortunately it did not. I have had my car since 1995 with 4 miles on it. It has not given me any problem at all, the most dependably car I’ve had. The reason why I opted for the swap is because the 4cyl motor lacked the punch I needed. Now that I have more power, I love my car even more than when I first saw it in the dealership.

1996 328ti
08-03-2005, 01:33 PM
I believe it cost the previous owner of my car about $8,000, parts and installation.

Dredder
08-03-2005, 01:42 PM
well i'm one of the fortunate one that did not overpay for a swap. This is the reason why im spreading the joy. I dont want members to get turned off by the swap becuase of price. We shoudlnt be paying that much for bmw products. Look at the force induction section for example. Come on!!!!! 6-8 grand for a kit. Thats unbelievable. When you look at other import kits for 2k-4k tops.

Dredder
08-03-2005, 02:00 PM
Not that it's a bad idea, but everyone likes to ask about it just to make their dick feel larger.

there are two kind of people in the world. The **** talker and the Doers. Let me ask everyone where do you belong?

needle332rur
08-03-2005, 02:33 PM
I was right in the middle of this argument a few mounhs ago, i ended up going with a m50 vanos swap. I not saying you need M swaps because all M parts are not too different from standard bmw, but cost alot more!

First is the sound, my car will never sound like a honda again.

Second price, 3400 to get a DASC is not bad but it's not great. i paid 800 for a motor and will have to pay another 800 about for all the misc parts, granted i do my own work thats only roughly 1600 half of a dasc.

Third the power, my car will dyno at the wheels about 165 hp with the swap, dasc does about 175 hp at the wheels. but now i could go NA and put m3 cams a conforti chip and good flowing entake and exhaust and have 200-210 rear wheel hp (if you don't belive me look at some of the dyno charts on bimmerforums,com). and if that does not impress me i could go forced induction and SC it of turbo the m50 to reliable 300-350 hp (with drive tran mods).

Last is BMW made it this way in Europe, The 323ti was a m50 2.5 litter motor. the same weights the same horse power.

you can call me unfathful for going the six cyl route, but bottom line its what bmw is know for (there silky smoth sixes).

There is really somthing cool about having a motor with close to 200 hp that has tons of potential after that, compared to have a motor a few pounds lighter at it's peak at 200 hp.

DustenT
08-03-2005, 03:46 PM
Supercharger: Can be installed by anyone with 10 fingers and more than 6 brain cells, retain factory weight distribution and handling, still acts like a high-revving 4 cylinder, 30+ mpg, no need to remove engine, no other upgrades needed, BEATS STOCK M3s.

Engine swap: Should be installed by a professional $$$, multiple upgrades needed (suspension, brakes, radiator, etc...), front heavy, rear-end can't handle the power, costs about twice what the supercharger does for about the same amount of power, $$$$ invested in a car that doesn't hold value like other BMWs.

nick_hegel
08-03-2005, 03:48 PM
Supercharger: Can be installed by anyone with 10 fingers and more than 6 brain cells, retain factory weight distribution and handling, still acts like a high-revving 4 cylinder, 30+ mpg, now need to remove engine, no other upgrades needed, BEATS STOCK M3s.
And that is why I want the DASC eventually!

Tyler
08-03-2005, 04:28 PM
Supercharger: Can be installed by anyone with 10 fingers and more than 6 brain cells, retain factory weight distribution and handling, still acts like a high-revving 4 cylinder, 30+ mpg, no need to remove engine, no other upgrades needed, BEATS STOCK M3s.

Engine swap: Should be installed by a professional $$$, multiple upgrades needed (suspension, brakes, radiator, etc...), front heavy, rear-end can't handle the power, costs about twice what the supercharger does for about the same amount of power, $$$$ invested in a car that doesn't hold value like other BMWs.


When you say beats stock m3's you must be reffering to a 2.5l engine.

Anyone who wants to put a S/C on there car with high mileage and put all that extra strain on your engine go right ahead. Anyone that wants more than 200 hp on there ti will do a swap. If you swap the engines then you can get alot more hp out of your engine with upgrades,for the m42-44 engine there isn't anything you can add onto it to get hp.. The most you'll get is 5hp, Chips are wortless for these engines. If i get a chip on a 2.8l and up we are talking about 15+ hp gain.

I personally would rather save up the extra cash and do a swap. I can get a 3.2l engine with 35k on it for 7-8k and thats with everything you'll need except for trans mission. Thats what i'm saving for,i figure i'll have it swapped by the spring of next year.
If my car had 20,xxx miles on it maybee i'd S/C it.

L84THSKY
08-03-2005, 05:57 PM
I hear ya!

That is why I am not afraid to say what I plan on doing to my car regardless of what most other people think of my mods. The bottom line is, what I say I'm gonna do, I end up doing :smile:

there are two kind of people in the world. The **** talker and the Doers. Let me ask everyone where do you belong?

L84THSKY
08-03-2005, 06:06 PM
BMW is known for six cylinders in USA, that is why the 318ti didn't sell well here. However, I lived in Europe for 10 years, and saw many four cylinder models.

To me, cool is a four banger that can fly off the line. It takes more technical know how to squeeze horsepower out of a four cylinder than to just throw in a six. That's why US cars to me are so technically inferior. They can't design a four cylinder with power, so they put in a big guzzler engine. Plus you get better gas mileage with the DASC over the six cylinder.

For me with only 47K miles, I would do a group buy on a DASC, and install it myself.




And that is why I want the DASC eventually!

DustenT
08-03-2005, 06:09 PM
When you say beats stock m3's you must be reffering to a 2.5l engine.

Anyone who wants to put a S/C on there car with high mileage and put all that extra strain on your engine go right ahead. Anyone that wants more than 200 hp on there ti will do a swap. If you swap the engines then you can get alot more hp out of your engine with upgrades,for the m42-44 engine there isn't anything you can add onto it to get hp.. The most you'll get is 5hp, Chips are wortless for these engines. If i get a chip on a 2.8l and up we are talking about 15+ hp gain.

I personally would rather save up the extra cash and do a swap. I can get a 3.2l engine with 35k on it for 7-8k and thats with everything you'll need except for trans mission. Thats what i'm saving for,i figure i'll have it swapped by the spring of next year.
If my car had 20,xxx miles on it maybee i'd S/C it.

If I blow my motor (m44) I can get a used one for less than $1500. Even if I have to replace my motor, I will STILL cost less than your motor swap. NickG's software adds more than 5 hp. Take a look at the dyno charts (www.techniquetuning.com).

96cali
08-03-2005, 06:22 PM
Not that it's a bad idea, but everyone likes to ask about it just to make their dick feel larger....If you didn't want a 4 cylinder, then why did you get a 318ti.

Given the number of people who have actually done one (or both) of these options I'd say it's more than farting in the wind. I think it's cool to weigh out all the costs/benefits in one thread (as we have with your search for the ultimate LSD). BTW, if you wanted an LSD, vented rotors, alarm, vaders and all the other stuff you've added to your ti why did you buy your Ti?

I can answer in 2 words- California roof!:biggrin:

L84THSKY
08-03-2005, 06:45 PM
First off, my upgrades are intended to provide as many features and or enhancements that the 318ti came with from the dealer.

LSD, sport seats and alarm where all available features on our cars; mine just didn't come with it.

Actually, I have a stock alarm, I'm just adding features that the car is already capable of, but not enabled.

The Vaders weren't my first choice; I would have preferred the sport seats in all sandbeige leather, but they didn't come in all leather.

Bottom line is I love a peppy four cylinder.


BTW, if you wanted an LSD, vented rotors, alarm, vaders and all the other stuff you've added to your ti why did you buy your Ti?

Dredder
08-03-2005, 11:57 PM
Supercharger: Can be installed by anyone with 10 fingers and more than 6 brain cells, retain factory weight distribution and handling, still acts like a high-revving 4 cylinder, 30+ mpg, no need to remove engine, no other upgrades needed, BEATS STOCK M3s.
People here are really getting misinformed. Listen guys, if you ever decide to install the DASC, you will not have a chance to beat a stock m3. Maybe a stock M3 with a retarded driver, that’s a maybe”. Stock dasc dyno at 160rwhp (high guess). Stock M3 @200rwhp
DO the math.
The fastest boosted 318ti in world is Raima with custom supercharger. From his last post I believe he was having a problem with his car "don’t quote me on this cause I know ppl are just waiting to pounce on what I just said"
I’m not here to convince you on your choice of upgrade. People will get the DASC for the power/price aspect, swap for power/performance aspect. And yes, it is your car and nobody will tell you what to do with it.
The bottom line is everyone needs to get informed and do their homework before getting something for our 318ti.

BTW, if you wanted an LSD, vented rotors, alarm, vaders and all the other stuff you've added to your ti why did you buy your Ti? This is the stupidest statement I heard to date. It like me saying, I'm not buying any clothes because I was born without it. Well duh.....checkout the Honda scene guys. People spend $$$ to upgrade their cars. Why, because they want to.

Dredder
08-04-2005, 12:10 AM
I can get a 3.2l engine with 35k on it for 7-8k and thats with everything you'll need except for trans mission.You are absolutely wrong. This is why people think the swap is expensive. You should not be spending more than $4000 for the complete swap kit. Trust me I've done my homework. Even if you were to buy from bavarian exchance. Thier high performance M3 engine is only at $2700 with warranty

needle332rur
08-04-2005, 12:20 AM
Supercharger: Can be installed by anyone with 10 fingers and more than 6 brain cells, retain factory weight distribution and handling, still acts like a high-revving 4 cylinder, 30+ mpg, no need to remove engine, no other upgrades needed, BEATS STOCK M3s.

Engine swap: Should be installed by a professional $$$, multiple upgrades needed (suspension, brakes, radiator, etc...), front heavy, rear-end can't handle the power, costs about twice what the supercharger does for about the same amount of power, $$$$ invested in a car that doesn't hold value like other BMWs.

Well i guess i have half a brain if i can do a swap myself no prob,

-My m50 will out rev my m42
-You don't need different shock (BMW has same dampening on all 3 series front ends except M3)
-Brake's...well all ti's need em
-radiators cost $180 new from bmw

Last if I here on any BMW forum that "you should have a professional do it" I will flip out. Read, figure, and be confident. This stuff is really not difficult if you take your time and have half a brain

"whatever man has made, man can make again"

Dredder
08-04-2005, 03:13 AM
comment from bfc
What an outstanding story! I hate cocky BM owners, it's always fun to put them in their place either through the twisties (in both our cases), or on the expressway (in your case)...
I know how it feels when you're underpowered at a stop light and another 6cyl BMW(especially M3 onwers) looks at you with that disgusting smirk in their face. You are not going walk away from them with DASC. You are going to need something more.....

DustenT
08-04-2005, 03:56 AM
So...
Is the time/money invested in the swap worth the extra power? I guess untimately that is the question. I'd like to say I'm on the fence, but I'm obviously a tad bit biased toward the DASC kit. I'd love to drive a ti with a 6 cylinder so I could decide for myself.

Dredder
08-04-2005, 04:59 AM
The best investment for my car so far. If you where in the portland area I would definitely get you a chance to drive the sleeper. Then you will realize the difference between the two.

Tyler
08-04-2005, 02:20 PM
You are absolutely wrong. This is why people think the swap is expensive. You should not be spending more than $4000 for the complete swap kit. Trust me I've done my homework. Even if you were to buy from bavarian exchance. Thier high performance M3 engine is only at $2700 with warranty


Thats not the site i saw it on. So your telling me i can get a euro 3.2l motor with 35k on it and all the necessary crap to install it except for transmission for $2700?? I hardly doubt that.... I want to buy a running engine not a seized one.

stormos
08-04-2005, 03:21 PM
you can get a whole m3 here for around 5k so i'd imagine he is pretty close.....

needle332rur
08-04-2005, 03:38 PM
So...
Is the time/money invested in the swap worth the extra power? I guess untimately that is the question. I'd like to say I'm on the fence, but I'm obviously a tad bit biased toward the DASC kit. I'd love to drive a ti with a 6 cylinder so I could decide for myself.

Thats what need to happen, we need to get some of our cars together and dyno them, check costs, and see whats better. both side have pros and cons.

L84THSKY
08-04-2005, 03:54 PM
Listen folks, there will always be someone with more money, and more horsepower than you.

So trying to "outdue" everyone is a futile effort. Make your car fit your needs. If the other car can beat me, so what, I am still very satisfied with the way I have personalized my car.

My Triumph motorcycle isn't the fastest bike on the road, but I get more looks and compliments than all the rice rockets and the Hogs combined. :evil_lau:

comment from bfc

I know how it feels when you're underpowered at a stop light and another 6cyl BMW(especially M3 onwers) looks at you with that disgusting smirk in their face. You are not going walk away from them with DASC. You are going to need something more.....

96cali
08-04-2005, 06:43 PM
This is the stupidest statement I heard to date. It like me saying, I'm not buying any clothes because I was born without it. Well duh.....checkout the Honda scene guys. People spend $$$ to upgrade their cars. Why, because they want to.

Hardly stupid at all. You're actually agreeing with me but you don't know it, so thanks. His original statement was:

"If you didn't want a 4 cylinder, then why did you get a 318ti."

I was pointing out the dichotomy that if he wanted vaders, why get a ti? Didn't come with them. If he wanted an LSD, why buy post '96 when they weren't offered or buy an e34 LSD, etc etc. Felt like he was criticizing people's individual choice to swap engines. I'm actually pro mod, pro swap, pro do whatever the f*ck you want to do it's your car not a museum piece.

DustenT
08-04-2005, 07:37 PM
Thats what need to happen, we need to get some of our cars together and dyno them, check costs, and see whats better. both side have pros and cons.

I totally agree....and congratulations on having half a brain. :icon_poke

96cali
08-04-2005, 10:42 PM
from Lisa Bethel at www.understeer.com (http://www.understeer.com):

"After the supercharger, my car (1997 318ti) dyno'd at 190hp at the wheels. It ran a 15.2 second quarter mile. The Nick G. software and pulley has helped a lot. I have not had a chance to put it on a dyno again, but used Chris used a GTech measurement device--which is supposed to very accurate. It ran a 14.7 second quarter mile at 93mph.

It should be good for ~230hp at the crank."

I remember it pulling 196hp but she knows better. Those numbers are with M44 DASC w/100k miles, stromung, lightweight flywheel, Nick G. Stage 3 software and 3.4"(?) pulley.

Who had the water mist system around here?

Tyler
08-04-2005, 11:27 PM
Who had the water mist system around here?


I think DustenT has that or might of had it. Correct me if i am wrong..

Dredder
08-05-2005, 12:27 AM
I remember it pulling 196hp but she knows better. Those numbers are with M44 DASC w/100k miles, stromung, lightweight flywheel, Nick G. Stage 3 software and 3.4"(?) pulleyI would bet they have spent as much money as my swap. On my first run at 1/4 "my very first time" I ran 14.6. I'm a ****ty driver so my car is capable of running better time.

Dont get me wrong here, Im pro mod. Like i said before, i dont care if i drove a geo, i will put mods/swap in that car also.

You are right L8, their are cars out there faster than you. I would bet you that you have experience another BMW looking down on you because you drive a 318ti. For me buying a 318ti was a personal preference not a financial choice. Now for those BMW who have now tried to walk on me laughing, all i see is thier jaw dropping.

Tyler - why buy a euro motor when you can get a us spec m3 3.0/3.2. With CAI/ex/hfm/cam/software, are are close to the same power output of EURO motor. In addition, you dont have the hardship of trying to find parts when something goes wrong

pdxmotorhead
08-05-2005, 12:47 AM
HMM I want the Geo with the M52.....

Dave

DustenT
08-05-2005, 01:07 AM
I think DustenT has that or might of had it. Correct me if i am wrong..

I have water/alcohol injection.

Dredder
08-05-2005, 01:22 AM
HMM I want the Geo with the M52.....Just imagine your 1/4 time if you can manage to get a good launch. Geo weigth in at about 50lbs with 240bhp..All i can say is dannnnnngggggggggggggggg. Total sleeper.. Bring on the new c06

Silver00spike
08-05-2005, 01:26 AM
Where can I buy this magical m3 motor for $2700?

DustenT
08-05-2005, 03:39 AM
Just imagine your 1/4 time if you can manage to get a good launch. Geo weigth in at about 50lbs with 240bhp..All i can say is dannnnnngggggggggggggggg. Total sleeper.. Bring on the new c06

I remember a while back seeing a kit to put a Yamaha V-Max 4 snowmobile engine in a Geo Metro. Imagine driving a 4 cylinder 2 stroke car!

Dredder
08-05-2005, 03:50 AM
Where can I buy this magical m3 motor for $2700?
I did my homework before my swap. Reason why i didnt get ripped off. Doesnt anybody here shop around anymore, rather than relying on hearsay. If you wana know bavarian exchance, as I mention in my earlier post sells thier motor cheap.
These quality guaranteed BMW engines are usually priced 50% to 75% off our standard rebuilt engine prices..

rebuilt engine prices pricelist=

upgrade Engine/Performance Engine/Clutch Kit Add
M3 88-91 MaxSil™ 1316995 / Tefcote™ $5,946 $6,908 $396
M3 95-96 MaxSil™ 1404959 / Tefcote™ $5,322 $6,622 $295
M3 97-98 MaxSil™ 1405513 / Tefcote™ $5,322 $6,622 $295
M5, M6 87-93 MaxSil™ 1310615 / Tefcote™ $6,945 $7,907 $425
Im tired someone can do the math for the discounted rates.

Tyler
08-05-2005, 04:07 AM
You are absolutely wrong. This is why people think the swap is expensive. You should not be spending more than $4000 for the complete swap kit. Trust me I've done my homework. Even if you were to buy from bavarian exchance. Thier high performance M3 engine is only at $2700 with warranty


According to there website the cheapest engine is $3.271 for a 2002 70-76.
the m3 engine is $6,000. They do not list prices on used engines but i doubt i can get a used 3.2l motor with 30k on it for $2700.
I will call them tomorrow and see what the prices are of a used 3.2l engine.

Dredder
08-05-2005, 04:10 AM
now take 50 - 75 % off that. Guys i spoke to them in person during my engine swap reasearch
last quote i got from them was last march when i was searching. I ended up going with a shops motor because it was right there in from of me. I knew what i was getting.

But this is the link for everyone
do this in order
http://www.bavengine.com/other.html then http://www.bavengine.com/engines_fr.html

96cali
08-05-2005, 04:35 AM
I would bet they have spent as much money as my swap.

mmm... maybe. Of course Chris Bethel is unique as he is a reseller of DASC and Stromung. His labor is also free (to him anyway). Some quick math

Dasc= $2750 group buy
Stromung $450
TCKline flywheel = $500?
Tech tuning St3 software= $1000 (guess cuz it says contact for quote)
Total $4700 w/o labor

Dang that does add up. Dredder does your $6200 total include exhaust work, rear end reinforcements or transmission upgrades?

Dredder
08-05-2005, 05:37 AM
Dang that does add up. Dredder does your $6200 total include exhaust work, rear end reinforcements or transmission upgrades?
the price was everything out the door.
I believe i got him beat, My motor complete and ECU was $3800:tongue:

Dredder
08-05-2005, 05:46 AM
remember the $6200 was everything including 80C thermostat and cooler flush. new oil filter and flush, tranny flush, steering fluid flush. The fluid used was, redline synthetics from a certified BMW mechanic and BMW only repair shop here in portland.
If anyones doubting me. I did a few pulls against OregonAlpines' OBD2 M3 from BFC and he couldnt hang. We did a freeway pull and i didnt even down shift to third gear.

AlaskaBlue
08-05-2005, 06:05 AM
That is a really good price.

My take on engine swap vs. S/C. If it is fast I don't care. All it has to do is meet the owners wants.

Now let me get this straight. Their are a few things that really confuse me about swaps.

1. The computer just goes in place of the original one?
2. The fuel injection and all that comes with the motor?
3. Needs a 6 cylinder radiator?
4. Other than those it basically bolts right in?

Dredder
08-05-2005, 07:38 AM
1. The M3 ECU will take its place. My ECU is model 413.
2. You need the complete motor (alt., power steering pump, A/c Compressor, Intake Manifold, Fuel rail, Etc.), wiring harness.
3 You really don’t need a 6 cyl radiator. If you live in a hot environment (e.g. California, Florida, Texas) then I suggest you do. I use an aluminum radiator from my 318ti that was upgraded during my power search for the old M42 power plant.
4. All E36 motors are interchangeable. You just got to find the right combination that will work for you. Try searching for all the required material for the swap. The most important part for making your ///M engine cool is the 80C thermostat.

I am not deterring anyone from getting a DASC. If my goal was to have max power of around 160wrhp then choice would be DASC. Cheap and reliable and can be installed easily.
I just want you guys to remember that if you’re trying to get the DASC to compete against the ///M, then you will be very disappointed. The entire amount you have spent to get the DASC close to a stock M3, you have already spent more money than if you would have just done an M3 swap. By that time, your stock m42/44 will require additional internal upgrades to push more HP out of that power plant, when you can have ///m3 power plant that can give you more than 450rwhp on stock internals with the help of FI and low compression HG.

The most important thing to remember about this particular thread is “WHAT IS YOUR GOAL” “WILL YOU BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE IT WITH THE CHOICE YOU MADE”

SWAP vs. Supercharger is like night and day. It depends on what you want.

pdxmotorhead
08-05-2005, 05:53 PM
I think fundamentally the choice is based on what is most important,
Ultimate power, (Swap) or an edge in economy (fuel) with a edge
in agility from the lighter weight. Head to head the 6 will beat the 4
for say endurance racing, But in a autocross I would bet its going to
be statistically even.

As far as reliability I don't believe the SC is any less reliable than the
M3 or M52 swap. there are plenty of supercharged rigs out there that
go 200K miles with no problem. ANY engine will fail if driven wrong.

The M42/M44 engines are very very tough. BMW didn't skimp on their
development. And because of the length of time the M42 was built
they definately have the bugs worked out.

Most M3 owners I know have a fairly high cost of ownership do to
wanting to keepp the engine at top performance. Not because they have to.

Dave

L84THSKY
08-05-2005, 06:17 PM
That's it in a nutshell! :cool:

I can't beat everyone all the time, but I can enjoy beating some of them some of the time. :smile:

I think fundamentally the choice is based on what is most important,
Ultimate power, (Swap) or an edge in economy (fuel) with a edge
in agility from the lighter weight.

DustenT
08-05-2005, 06:21 PM
I can't beat everyone all the time, but I can enjoy beating some of them some of the time. :smile:

Same here, I sometimes get beat by my friends Turbo S Beetle. It has the Audi TT motor in, plus it's chipped so it's pretty quick. Nothing like getting beat by a Beetle to put you in your place!

pdxmotorhead
08-05-2005, 07:10 PM
I got my doors blown off from a stoplight by an F250 yesterday.....:eek:
and I do mean blown off. Big Block 4 door long bed.

Tough to beat pure cubic inches.:biggrin:

Dave (Looking at the swap because its sounds fun)

DustenT
08-05-2005, 08:02 PM
I got my doors blown off from a stoplight by an F250 yesterday.....:eek:
and I do mean blown off. Big Block 4 door long bed.

Tough to beat pure cubic inches.:biggrin:

Dave (Looking at the swap because its sounds fun)

I saw a F350 turbo diesel with propane injection beat an NSX, now that's funny! HUGE cloud of black smoke and 1 pissed off NSX driver.

pdxmotorhead
08-05-2005, 11:50 PM
This guy totally took my lunch money ,,
don't know for sure what engine but it wasn't a deisel or a diesel.

Dave

Dredder
08-05-2005, 11:53 PM
I saw a F350 turbo diesel with propane injection beat an NSX, now that's funny! HUGE cloud of black smoke and 1 pissed off NSX driver.
Imagine the look on that NSX drivers face... :_pissed:- :mad:- :fingers:- :ashamed:

Silver00spike
08-06-2005, 12:50 AM
well, I don't know if you want to say that going DASC is reliable. My 109k engine leaked coolant about 3-4 times, each time it was some plastic coolant to engine adapter, or something like that that costs $40, and plenty of labor because they have to take the blower off to reach it. This was one of my main reasons for wanting the swap

Tyler
08-06-2005, 01:06 AM
I saw a F350 turbo diesel with propane injection beat an NSX, now that's funny! HUGE cloud of black smoke and 1 pissed off NSX driver.


I was at the New Hampshire drag strip opening night earlier this year and there was a F-350 turbo diesel with the Banks power chip or something like that. Well it was running low 11's high 10's. This thing was just hauling a$$ down the line,nothing that went up against it could beat it.

McFly
10-01-2005, 08:16 AM
I did my homework before my swap. Reason why i didnt get ripped off. Doesnt anybody here shop around anymore, rather than relying on hearsay. If you wana know bavarian exchance, as I mention in my earlier post sells thier motor cheap.

Im tired someone can do the math for the discounted rates.

Thier high performance M3 engine is only at $2700 with warranty

From http://www.bavengine.com/engine.html:
Their rebuilt M3 engines are $5,322.
Their performance M3 engines are $6,622.

Now that's rebuilt. I understand taking 50% off of $5400 to get the $2700 figure, but that's for a used M3 engine, therefore not "high performance". I believe "high performance" is only done to their rebuilt engines, am I correct? From reading their "used engines" page here (http://www.bavengine.com/other.html) I see nothing about the "high performance" option, which increases the stock horsepower by 20%.

Not knocking at all, just trying to figure out what you mean. Did they tell you that they do their "high performance" option to used engines? If so that'd be excellent!

myblueTI
10-01-2005, 05:12 PM
S/C is the way to go with a Ti. Its not really the same with a six because your going against the true nature of a Ti . I mean if you want m3 power get a M3 simple is that.the money you spend on your Ti and the swap could get you a good M3.

Panzer_M
10-01-2005, 05:43 PM
I can name that tune in ONE note: $

Ha

if the choice I would have gotten a 323ti also.

and I got my ClubSport, over a 95 M3 I was looking at.

I like the style of the Ti, it's like the 2002tii just stands out in a group of BMWs

but since I am working with a factory four, I decided to go f/i on a built engine, rather than swap a bigger heavy powerplant into it.

I may pick up another 95 Ti for a swap in a year or so, but for now it's going to be boost that runs the CS.

jflip2002
10-01-2005, 09:41 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-BMW-M3-Engine-Complete-S50-w-extras-318-325_W0QQitemZ8003334085QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

thats $1300, with the tranny.... How does it come out to $10k installed? Is there a lot more to the swap? If not, I can win that M3 engine, and throw it in my TI. I have the blown head gasket $160, need a $400 valve job, $40 new water pump, and to have my #2 cylinder sleeved $250. It would only be about $500-$600 or so more for the M3 engine, now would be the time to do the swap. and maybe even ebay the engine with a blown head gasket, and get a couple hundred.

With all the crap included, how big of a pain is the swap?

Hard_Ti_Fool
10-01-2005, 09:45 PM
Hey DustenT....love the wheels. Can I ask where u got them from??

Panzer_M
10-02-2005, 06:00 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995-BMW-M3-Engine-Complete-S50-w-extras-318-325_W0QQitemZ8003334085QQcategoryZ33615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

thats $1300, with the tranny.... How does it come out to $10k installed? Is there a lot more to the swap? If not, I can win that M3 engine, and throw it in my TI. I have the blown head gasket $160, need a $400 valve job, $40 new water pump, and to have my #2 cylinder sleeved $250. It would only be about $500-$600 or so more for the M3 engine, now would be the time to do the swap. and maybe even ebay the engine with a blown head gasket, and get a couple hundred.

With all the crap included, how big of a pain is the swap?

the pains are EWS and ODB II wiring to a point
a complete swap, engine, drivetrain, diff and suspension will put you in the 10k range if not over

also the small diff of the ti needs to be addressed
Front struts will have to be replaced

318ti_Portugal
01-02-2006, 07:29 PM
Hello...

I've read this whole thread and I got some good informations out of it...
I would just like to state my opinion. I thought about an M50 OBDI swap for my M42 ti for a long time but now I'm thinking about a different route. In europe, supercharges are not so popular, so I did some research about building up my M42.
I talked to several mechanics and tuners and came up with these ideas:

- Bore the engine to 2.1 liters.
- ITBs (dbilas)
- Custom cams
- Complete stainless exhaust
- Stand alone fuel management system
- Reinforced valve springs
- Custom programmed chip
- Dry sump oil pan
- lightweight flywheel
- Reinforced clutch
- Increased compression

Amoung other things.
The general opinion about this setup would be around 200 whp and a high reeving engine with excellent throttle response.
I think this kind of build up is also a good alternative to swapping a 6, because you can maintain the weight distribution (a 4 banger stays behind the front axle and a 6 adds weight in front wich compromises the turn in ability of the car), the engine has better throttle response than a 6 and there is no need for difficult suspension tuning because of the new weights.

What do you think of this?

I think it is a good route to increase M42 power. I don't think it is that difficult to add power to a 4 banger, it just takes more know how and it is not based on bolt-on upgrades... Take the japanese cars for example... They have tunned AE86s wich have a 1.6 liter NA engine and put out 200 WHP!

myblueTI
01-02-2006, 07:36 PM
How much will this cost?

318ti_Portugal
01-02-2006, 07:40 PM
When I did the budget it was around 3500 euros in parts plus the labour. It was a bit more than a swap, at least here in Portugal. But I think the car would be great!

J!m
01-02-2006, 11:07 PM
OK guys. I am certainly biased here, but as most of you know I offer a swap manual to anyone who wants it. In that manual, I have a chart which I will post here, of HP to weight ratios (how many pounds do you need to move with how much power). This gives an excellent base line for doing comparative analysis between ANY car, not just E36s (which is what the chart is based on). The data is from the BMWCCA racing data, used for car clasification, and assumes a stock car. The more accurate your data (exact weight and exact crank/RW power) AND keeping in mind that 'units' need to be similar (Crank HP or Rear Wheel HP) Vs. weight in similar units for any of this to be valid. I have not verified the validity of the data represented, just did some simple weight assumptions/calculations to fill in the blank for a swapped ti.

One other item that I did not see mentioned at all in this thread is torque. This is what you 'feel' as 'pull' in the car. Maximum horsepower numbers (regardless of how high) will almost always be at peak RPM, because that's the way the calculation works. More torque in a car will always launch harder and accelerate faster than an identical car with less torque, regardless of ultimate horsepower.

Lets look at a HP curve for the Honda S-2000 for a second (I'm working from memory, and would appreciate someone finding a stock pull to compare to a stock ti pull) at similar RPMs, the motors perform very similarly. The Honda has a higher redline (MUCH higher) and therefore a higher horse power number. HOWEVER, down in the low RPM's, the torque is similar (if not lower). The Honda is lighter (HP/Weight ratio more favorable) and I'm sure it's geared lower than a ti, to get the car into the higher RPMs faster, for a perceived increase in torque.

I am providing this information for everyone's benifit. No mehod of power or torque increase is better than another. I personally come from a background of over-bored big-block Chrysler engines, and love the torque. Carrol Shelby once said "There's no replacement for displacement" and it holds true today.

The fuel economy argument is futile. A 'boosted' ti vs. a (let's say for arguments sake) an identically HP/Tq specified six cylinder, you weight advantage with the blower is small (but it is there) and the average fuel economy will be within 1 MPG. Any change to the power/tq : weight ratio will change this. It's a balance. You actually need a certain amount of power to move a car. if there is either more OR less than this ideal, the mileage will suffer. An engine too small for an application is just as poor on fuel as an engine that is too big for the application.

Interesting data*:
Stock 318ti 2745Lb / 138 HP = 19.89 Lb/HP
328is 3120 Lb. / 190 HP = 16.42 Lb/HP
M3 Convertible 3494 Lb. / 240 HP = 14.56 Lb/HP
Standard M3 3175 Lb / 240 HP = 13.23 Lb/HP
M Coupe` 3131 Lb. / 240 HP = 13.05 Lb/HP
M Roadster 3086 Lb. / 240 HP = 12.86 Lb/HP
M3 Lightweight 2950 Lb / 240 HP = 12.29 Lb/HP

Modified “332ti” 2850 Lb (est.) / 240 HP = 11.88 Lb/HP

Euro M3 3175 Lb (est.) / 286 HP = 11.10 Lb/HP

*Above data based on BMWCCA web site racing weights chart.

318ti_Portugal
01-03-2006, 12:16 AM
J!m, I agree with the torque. It is very important. My daily driver here in Portugal is a Seat Ibiza 1.9 tdi with 130 bhp, but a massive torque of 310nm!
With my seat, I can overrun a friend of mine's 325i in undertaking accelaration. A Build up M42 can have 200bhp but thats 200bhp at, let's say 7500 rpm. It is an excellent track car, but not a very user friendly daily driver. I thought of building up my M42 because I have another car to use on a daily basis. My biggest concern about swapping a 6 is the added weight, but already saw your reply to my other thread and I thing swapping is a good route. Expecially since here in Portugal it is relatevely cheap. The mechanics don't charge alot for installing a swap. :)

2ndBimmer
01-03-2006, 06:29 AM
310nm = 228lb ft.

200hp @ 7.5k = 140lb ft, prefectly feasable if you can safely get an M42/44 to spin that high.

Horsepower is just a measure of how much and how often torque is being applied. Being that an S2000 spins to 9k, it applies its 150 lb/ft far more often than, say, the E39 540i does which has 325 lb ft to put down but only makes 290hp because it can only apply its power at a rate of 5400rpm.

(of course torque amount curves over the revs of the engine so peak torque and peak HP never coincide [unless the engine only spins to 5252 rpm :wink: ])

Im only writing this to give a better understanding of the relationship between Torque and Horsepower for those who are curious.

HuGo
01-03-2006, 11:31 AM
Here would be my idea of why getting the Ti for a swap. PPL say if u wanted 6 cyl. then why u get TI. Many reasons, maybe u liked the car before u even thought about the swap. So u already had the car when the swap idea came up. Second, Street racers *no not me :P* want lighter cars with bigger engines. Like honda civics hatch going H22 motors *prelude motors*

In my case/idea/opinion, i would rather be 318ti S52 cuz of strong motor and the car being light. Second, im 18, insurance having a M3 would shuv a stick up my as$. Would be way to expensive for me. ppl dont see 318ti's like a WOAH CAR like they see M3's so, less prevention in ur car getting stolen. Third, being a 318ti, maybe body work and stuff wont be ass expensive, like getting a new fender and such. Finally, well ppl thinking im slow and have no idea im runnin 6 cyl. I have more reasons but as for now thats all i can think off.

Im trying to save up money, and my best hopes is finding a f*cked up M3 thats cheap just to take the engine. I dont care if paint coming off, or all crashed up, as long as motor works, is all i want. That way i know im not missing any pieces like pumps or such. Ill just transfer everything over to my TI. Like the brakes and all that stuff.

Anyway, this thread got filled up quickly i would say. But yea, if same price for dasc and swap, of coarse i would go with swap instead.

Oh and hey dusten, go get ur car dyno'd and tell us how much HP u have, and how much you have spendded so far, give ppl a better idea whether swap or dasc. I think that would be a good thing for ppl to see. Cuz we know now, 5-8K i dont know for a 240HP motor swap. So with money u spent and ur HP, we can pretty much see whats up.

Whats major difference between the 95 M3, and the 99 M3 engine? Well i think 95's and lower are called OBD1?? and the e36 M3 versions are called ObD2?? I dont really know, buts which one is stronger. im guessing same cuz they both have same HP?? Another question, which one would be cheaper/easier to install. Im guessing cheaper for OBD1 cuz its an old engine? Overall, which one would just be better to put in.

HuGo
01-03-2006, 11:59 AM
DUDE I WANT THIS, do they make it for m44 motor that looks just like this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-02-03-04-05-BMW-E46-M3-CARBON-FIBER-ENGINE-COVER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33627QQitemZ8026448629QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

2ndBimmer
01-03-2006, 12:15 PM
Whats major difference between the 95 M3, and the 99 M3 engine? Well i think 95's and lower are called OBD1?? and the e36 M3 versions are called ObD2?? I dont really know, buts which one is stronger. im guessing same cuz they both have same HP?? Another question, which one would be cheaper/easier to install. Im guessing cheaper for OBD1 cuz its an old engine? Overall, which one would just be better to put in.

Theres alot of confusion over ODB1 & 2.
I know up to 1995 was ODB (On Board Diganostics) 1, and ODB2 from 1996 on. Ive read from people doing the swap that ODB2 to ODB2 is alot easier than trying to convert one to the other. I believe that ODB has to do with emissions control and readings.

And if getting an S50/52 engine was about as expensive as DASC then I would have. Or an S54 :biggrin:

HuGo
01-03-2006, 12:17 PM
Theres alot of confusion over ODB1 & 2.
I know up to 1995 was ODB (On Board Diganostics) 1, and ODB2 from 1996 on. Ive read from people doing the swap that ODB2 to ODB2 is alot easier than trying to convert one to the other. I believe that ODB has to do with emissions control and readings.

And if getting an S50/52 engine was about as expensive as DASC then I would have. Or an S54 :biggrin:

what car is s54 from?? whats HP?

318ti_Portugal
01-03-2006, 02:11 PM
S54 is from the E46 M3 I think. If I'm correct, then the S54 has 343hp. :)

halek
01-03-2006, 04:01 PM
This guy sells the complete swap package - not much use to anyone not in the UK thou :rolleyes:

http://www.fabdirect.com/index05.htm (scroll to bottom of page)

2ndBimmer
01-03-2006, 06:12 PM
S54 is from the E46 M3 I think. If I'm correct, then the S54 has 343hp. :)

S50 is ODB1, M3 for 1995. 240HP
S52 is ODB2, M3 96-99. 240HP
S54 is E46 M3 01-05. 333HP.

All are "3.2" liters (more or less)

96cali
01-03-2006, 06:14 PM
who was the member recently doing an S54 swap? don't think we've ever seen another. He sounded underway...

AlaskaBlue
01-03-2006, 06:18 PM
What I hear was that getting the S54 to work required a stand alone engine management. Very expensive to do.

It would be easier to drop in the e36 OBD-II euro M3 motor S50B32 which had 321 hp. Alex Lipowich sells those motors. He is a member on here. He is also building a 3.2 liter euro M3 motored ti.

The other option would be the OBD-I euro M3 motor S50B30 which is rated at 286 hp.

I think those motors are a direct bolt on if with a left hand drive wiring harness.

318ti_Portugal
01-03-2006, 09:02 PM
Wouldn't the euro 3.2 engine be too heavy for the ti?

J!m
01-03-2006, 09:19 PM
About the same weight as the US M3 engine. You must up-rate the suspension to handle the weight.

318ti_Portugal
01-03-2006, 09:46 PM
Are there any good performance upgrades for the euro engine available? Like pulleys, Intake, chips, cams, lightweight flywheels, and so on?

J!m
01-03-2006, 10:05 PM
Are there any good performance upgrades for the euro engine available?

>I'm sure there are a few things floating around Europe, but remember at that level of tune, there is not a huge ammount of room for improvement, short of forced induction. I think the US Team PTG were getting only 320-350 HP from their full-race engines (Normally aspirated). These are hand-built masterpieces at the top of their form. Don't expect this from your local engine builder (but I'm sure PTG will build an engine for the right $$$)...:eek:

Like pulleys

>Perhaps in the UK or Europe, but I think the accessory routing is different betwen the US and Euro engines, so the US pulleys may not work. Not sure on that.

Intake

>I doubt any improvement can be had here, however porting and polishing of the head may be good for a few HP increase...

chips

>Most likely, Again, don't expect much improvement, as the RPM is quite high in stock form. 90+% of HP improvement numbers due to 'chips' are directly related to RPM increase.

cams

> Check with Schrick. These are the only makeers I would trust outside of BMW themselves (and I think Schrick makes cams for BMW)

lightweight flywheels

>Definately. I think the US M3 has the same bolt pattern on the crank so the US made flywhels should work fine. Don't expect huge HP gains from this, but rather faster acceleration- it's like dumping weight from the car, which, by the way, is still the fastest and cheapest way to go fast... Loose weight in the car, starting at the roof and working down.

And, since it has to be custom anyway, bring the best exhaust parts you can get to a dyno and build an exhaust as good as no exhaust. I assume you need to keep the cat, but id not, loosing this and up-sizing the pipes will help. Straight pipes will be better than a muffler, but a 'roudy' M3 engine is not a sweet sounding as you might expect. It's quite a monster! Like a cros between a weed-eater and a 747...:tongue:

Bottom line: if you want to stret it, leave it alone. A stock Euro M3 engine in a ti is quite potent as it is (quite honestly very dangerous too). Add the flywheel, and the required custom exhaust and be happy with it. If you have the money this type of project demands 'burning a hole in your pocket', look for a used, fully 'sorted' M3 race car. It will cost less in the long run, and give you everything you seem to be going for.

Oh, yeah. Don't forget this: No matter how fast it is, there's ALWAYS someone faster...:wink:

angel318ti
01-31-2006, 01:53 AM
Lets say that you go the SC route. Whats gonna happen after you don't feel the difference anymore. What are you gonna do? most likely swap the engine. Why not start with the engine swap the move up to a SC on a M3 motor. Now we are talking real power.

DustenT
01-31-2006, 02:07 AM
Lets say that you go the SC route. Whats gonna happen after you don't feel the difference anymore. What are you gonna do? most likely swap the engine. Why not start with the engine swap the move up to a SC on a M3 motor. Now we are talking real power.

My car feels "over powered" every time i drive it. Do you know what boost feels like? You ALWAYS feel boost.

cali-ti
01-31-2006, 02:15 AM
Lets say that you go the SC route. Whats gonna happen after you don't feel the difference anymore. What are you gonna do? most likely swap the engine. Why not start with the engine swap the move up to a SC on a M3 motor. Now we are talking real power.
that's when you go for stage 3 (and maybe a custom intercooler) :biggrin:

Silver00spike
01-31-2006, 05:33 AM
My car feels "over powered" every time i drive it. Do you know what boost feels like? You ALWAYS feel boost.
what about above 60mph?

HuGo
01-31-2006, 10:03 AM
i wanted to go M3/SC if i had the money, i would. Im still waiting to see if the horse races gives me that money or playing poker, hehe.

DustenT
01-31-2006, 01:29 PM
what about above 60mph?

I can feel it especially on the highway. When I want to pass cars I don't need to down shift. Just mash the throttle. This might be because of ,my 3.45 rear end, but on the highway my rpms are in a very torquey spot.

HuGo
01-31-2006, 01:31 PM
I can feel it especially on the highway. When I want to pass cars I don't need to down shift. Just mash the throttle. This might be because of ,my 3.45 rear end, but on the highway my rpms are in a very torquey spot.

3.45, differential right?? What would the stock be, the number?? Idk what diff is anyways, i just know something with the tires or how it turns or something like that.

1996 328ti
01-31-2006, 01:53 PM
A stock diff for a manual is 3.45:1.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

Panzer_M
01-31-2006, 05:07 PM
Given the number of people who have actually done one (or both) of these options I'd say it's more than farting in the wind. I think it's cool to weigh out all the costs/benefits in one thread (as we have with your search for the ultimate LSD). BTW, if you wanted an LSD, vented rotors, alarm, vaders and all the other stuff you've added to your ti why did you buy your Ti?

I can answer in 2 words- California roof!:biggrin:

I got LSD, Sports Seats, and no Nanny System in my Ti and I got a M42.

myblueTI
06-21-2006, 04:43 AM
Ok to me the 4cyl is part of the Ti. If your looking to get that extra power out the the little 4 banger go with the supercharger. But if your that person that will s/c it and 2 weeks later think that his car is slow and needs more power you need the swap. If your not going to race all the time and just need the extra power go s/c. If your the raceing type and are going to want more power and more power out of your car you will need to swap. So after this it looks like im going to have to do that swap. Then a turbo then get a job to pay for all my fun.

FATHER
06-21-2006, 03:20 PM
I'm with Dustnet and not because i have a SC too, my bro have a 95 black M3 with some mods, but the boost feeling is more cool than the aspirate engine, also the idea of spent 8,000 in motor swap is not for me, i think is better sale the TI in 8,000 and plus the 8,000 for the swap buy a real M3, so if a buy a TI i have a TI not a MTI, so that is my opinion....:)

316i compact
06-21-2006, 04:43 PM
Ι cant believe how some dare to compare the 4pot with the 6pot. The 6pots is what BMW name stands for!! There is no real comparison. The six pot revs so free,it is so smooth,it is the perfect engine to have! And far more torque as well. And there WAS version of the ti to have a 6cyl as all know,the 323ti which is an amazing car!
Someone called the M42 or M44 high revving engine. Thats a big lie. They will never be high revving engines! And it will never be as reliable as stock with the dasc or with any supercharger. The stress on the engine parts
is not the same and the dasc doesnt include reprogrammed ECU and i/c as well which are its weak points!!!
I would chose the engine swap for sure. It gives you the potential for very big hp numbers!
And to be honest,i never considered the US E36 M3 as a genuine M3. If you had the option for the 3.2L 321hp or even the 3.0 286hp you wouldnt even think about superchargers!! THIS IS A HIGH REVVING ENGINE!!! The US M engines are just some M50 and M52 "factory upgrades".
If anyone of those who say they chose 4pot had lived with a BMW 6cyl they wouldnt even think about it !

jetblackbimmer
06-21-2006, 05:26 PM
-radiators cost $180 new from bmw

I just had mine replaced and the dealer wanted $563. Even if you are in the UK that still doesn't match the exchange. My mechanic had to call his suppliers and order it for his cousin to find one for under $200.

DustenT
06-21-2006, 05:32 PM
Ι cant believe how some dare to compare the 4pot with the 6pot. The 6pots is what BMW name stands for!! There is no real comparison. The six pot revs so free,it is so smooth,it is the perfect engine to have! And far more torque as well. And there WAS version of the ti to have a 6cyl as all know,the 323ti which is an amazing car!
Someone called the M42 or M44 high revving engine. Thats a big lie. They will never be high revving engines! And it will never be as reliable as stock with the dasc or with any supercharger. The stress on the engine parts
is not the same and the dasc doesnt include reprogrammed ECU and i/c as well which are its weak points!!!
I would chose the engine swap for sure. It gives you the potential for very big hp numbers!
And to be honest,i never considered the US E36 M3 as a genuine M3. If you had the option for the 3.2L 321hp or even the 3.0 286hp you wouldnt even think about superchargers!! THIS IS A HIGH REVVING ENGINE!!! The US M engines are just some M50 and M52 "factory upgrades".
If anyone of those who say they chose 4pot had lived with a BMW 6cyl they wouldnt even think about it !


I'll take my supercharged 4 cylinder over a 6 cylinder swapped Ti any day. How much experience do you have with supercharged 4 cylinder BMW motors? You have the m43 if I not mistaken, maybe you think the m42 and m44 are like the m43?

In my experience ALL bmw motors are well built. The purpose of this thread is to help people choose between a 6 cylinder swap and a supercharger when compared dollar for dollar. Since the 6 cylinder swap costs a lot more and the end result is only slightly higher HP, the supercharger is generally a better option. This is assuming that money plays a large roll in the decision.

jetblackbimmer
06-21-2006, 05:38 PM
Same here, I sometimes get beat by my friends Turbo S Beetle. It has the Audi TT motor in, plus it's chipped so it's pretty quick. Nothing like getting beat by a Beetle to put you in your place!
I would wanna drive that. damn

316i compact
06-21-2006, 06:02 PM
I'll take my supercharged 4 cylinder over a 6 cylinder swapped Ti any day. How much experience do you have with supercharged 4 cylinder BMW motors? You have the m43 if I not mistaken, maybe you think the m42 and m44 are like the m43?

In my experience ALL bmw motors are well built. The purpose of this thread is to help people choose between a 6 cylinder swap and a supercharger when compared dollar for dollar. Since the 6 cylinder swap costs a lot more and the end result is only slightly higher HP, the supercharger is generally a better option. This is assuming that money plays a large roll in the decision.

Ofcourse the M43 is not the same with the M42 and M44! And what experience do you have with 6cyl M52? In family we have an E39 520i as well,with the junior 2.0L 6cyl. Just before that we had the 318iS coupe with the M42 engine. And you know what my experience is? I would never buy again a 4cyl BMW cause its not a true BMW! Someone said that the 4 pot is in the nature of the ti. This is mistaken since there was official 6cyl version of the model.
I agree that all BMW motos are well built! I know what the purpose of this thread is thats why i am telling my experience with 4 and 6cyl BMWs. And i dont think that a swap to M50B25 or M52B28 is so much moreexpensive!

DustenT
06-21-2006, 06:33 PM
Ofcourse the M43 is not the same with the M42 and M44! And what experience do you have with 6cyl M52? In family we have an E39 520i as well,with the junior 2.0L 6cyl. Just before that we had the 318iS coupe with the M42 engine. And you know what my experience is? I would never buy again a 4cyl BMW cause its not a true BMW! Someone said that the 4 pot is in the nature of the ti. This is mistaken since there was official 6cyl version of the model.
I agree that all BMW motos are well built! I know what the purpose of this thread is thats why i am telling my experience with 4 and 6cyl BMWs. And i dont think that a swap to M50B25 or M52B28 is so much moreexpensive!

Snuggz has an s52 swapped 318ti. While I haven't driven the car myself (I will soon!) I did go for a ride in it. The 6 cylinder is nice, the power is very linear and seems to rev much slower than my 4 cylinder. I doesn't feel like Snuggz's car is THAT much fast than mine, although I'm sure it is in fact faster. Like I said, when it comes down to $, the SC will almost always win the debate.

This thread was meant to be an informative discussion about the pros and cons of the 6 cylinder swap vs. SC. Since you have neither, let's drop this so the thread doesn't get any further off topic. Thanks!

96cali
06-21-2006, 11:16 PM
I would never buy again a 4cyl BMW cause its not a true BMW!

Better inform the e30 M3 owners they got taken! :doh:

316i compact
06-21-2006, 11:24 PM
Better inform the e30 M3 owners they got taken! :doh:

This is one of the exceptions :rolleyes: along with the 2002 turbo!!!

McFly
06-22-2006, 06:40 AM
I would never buy again a 4cyl BMW cause its not a true BMW!

That's the most sophomoric remark I've read on these forums. This is a 318ti forum.

DustenT, hey have you had a chance to drive a 6-cyl swapped ti? I've only driven a 4-cyl ti, neither supercharged nor swapped. I was impressed to begin with, so I can imagine a supercharger would be an incredible improvement and furthermore, a Euro M3 6-cyl swap would be even more incredible. Just my guesstimates, but having owned a few supercharged cars myself in the past, I can see how you'd tend you favor the supercharger opinion.

I've been subscribed to this thread since it began, so it's nice to see it popping up again - let's here some more sound opinions!!! :)

AlaskaBlue
06-22-2006, 08:07 AM
Basically the way I see it is that if you have a lower milage good conditon 4 cylinder then S/C it. If you have a high mileage mediocre to poor condition 4 cylinder then do a swap with your choice of engines.

andy
06-23-2006, 09:01 PM
I would never buy again a 4cyl BMW cause its not a true BMW!

Hahaha - 2002 Turbo, in fact all 2002s and 2002tiis, e30M3...WTCC BMW 320i, don't forget the Brabham BMW BT50s, the most powerful F1 engines ever.

http://www.research-racing.de/bmwturbo.htm

Or the actual BMW HQ, often called the 'Four Cylinder'

http://www.7-forum.com/modelle/bmw_museum_e.php

Anyway...truth is, the M4x's are designed to be economy engines, and give a decent amount of power considering the fact they were designed in the late 80s. As such, while I have seen them killed before, they are about as bulletproof an engine as you could ask for. SC makes a lot of sense given the time to put it in, and the M44s even have some good sw upgrade options too. Without sponsorship, my 'simple' engine swap would have easily run 10K.

If I had a daily M42 or M44, I'd definitely DASC it before doing an engine swap.

PeteN95
06-28-2006, 08:42 PM
Great points, Andy, I would bet the 4cyl F1 motor made more power than any of the 6s. Also this statement:

"The 6pots is what BMW name stands for!! "

Is not accurate, because the first engines BMW made were radial aircraft engines, in fact the logo is a spinning propeller!

316i compact
06-28-2006, 09:56 PM
It doesn't make sense to compare the 4 pots racing like the WTCC and the Brabham turbo with normal engines. So what if they are 4cyl? They are racing engines. I agree with the fact that E30 M3s had a wonderfull almost racing engine and that 2002 turbo and tii is historical. But never any 4 pot will be so good as the E46 M3 engine or the euro E36 M3. 4 pots are entry level affordable BMWs nowadays with many compromises in terms of power and refinement.
Anyway, i am happy about the fact that you guys there taking your time with the M44s and M42s cause in Europe noone is interested in tuning them. Everyone swaps to 6s and especially ///M. But i would really like to own a SCd M44 with 300 hp to use it for street racing:)

mss318ti
06-29-2006, 09:13 PM
This is the way I view this. The 6 cylinders offer more options for performance later on because they have the extra displacement. But the cost to install a different engine and all of the other required parts in my opinion is too high for the performance gain unless you can get ahold of a cheap good condition M engine (Good luck). I would not install anything other than a S50/52 as the work will be the same. Again just my opinion. A built up supercharged M42/M44 is in my opinion the more cost effective choice because honestly why do you need more than 350HP (this is possible for less than $10,000, and will be available for the ti). I dont see why you want more than 350HP in the car when the money would be better spent making the car lighter and improving the suspension and braking. Think what a ti weighing in at 2300lbs with 300HP,brakes,tires, and suspension is capable of. With the four cylinders shortness and its ability to keep the weight behind the front axle the only real benefit for getting a six cylinder is the ability to create large amounts of HP (with a good investment) and the appeal of saying I have six cylinders. Now dont get me wrong I love six cylinder powered BMWs I have 2 (E34 M5, E30 325i) but I also know that a four cylinder has advantages and that massive power isnt everything. Just my 2 cents about swapping or going to a supercharged 4.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW Performance

mohaughn
06-29-2006, 09:19 PM
Greg- What kind of engine build out do you think an m42 or m44 needs to safely create 300HP and not have longevity issues. Right now my thought is that I would hate to put 5g's into full supercharger, exhaust, etc... system and then have the engine go in the first year. I'm thinking at 300HP the I6 is more reliable. So how much to make the 4banger reliable at the power?

DustenT
06-29-2006, 09:22 PM
Greg- What kind of engine build out do you think an m42 or m44 needs to safely create 300HP and not have longevity issues. Right now my thought is that I would hate to put 5g's into full supercharger, exhaust, etc... system and then have the engine go in the first year. I'm thinking at 300HP the I6 is more reliable. So how much to make the 4banger reliable at the power?

A m44 costs $500 to replace, a s52 costs $5000.

mohaughn
06-29-2006, 09:47 PM
Damn.. Didn't realize you could get a used one that cheap(just saw snuggz thread, so they do sell that cheap). I was thinking a couple grand atleast. That does change things a bit. This whole time I was planning to go the supercharger route, but my mechanic is leaning me towards doing an engine swap. Of course that means more labor for him.

He is thinking 8-9k to get a rebuilt 2.8 into the car and have it delivering 250hp at the flywheel. That would of course depend on which i6 we went with, and how cheaply we could get it. Of course we didn't get into specifics so their could be other costs with that number, like clutch, exhaust, etc..

mss318ti
06-29-2006, 10:29 PM
Mohaughn, I think what we are currently working on our Stage 3 Supercharger System is ideal (Again Im going to be biased). The goal for the Stage 3 is to make 290HP with no concerns about reliability. To do this we are replacing pretty much everything that moves in the motor along with, improving flow into the motor and out. You are right in saying that it would be easier to gain 300HP out of the I6 and it wouldnt take as much to do it as the S50/52 is already at 240HP. Reliability on the other hand is hard to explain as a high revving NA 6 cylinder has reliability issues of a different kind as it is still a used engine and if you were to supercharge or turbo the I6 then you would still have issues because it is a used motor where as the M42/44 is a rebuilt motor specifically built to handle making 290HP. So basically our rebuilt supercharged M42/44 is designed to make 290+HP where as the used S50/52 is still used and unless its rebuilt then it will still have reliability issues where as our Stage 3 is basically new. As for price it should be well below $10,000 and include a warranty and we will ship a built ready to install short block.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW Performance

mohaughn
06-29-2006, 10:51 PM
That actually sounds really interesting. Especially if you could work it out so that people who bought the stage 2 kit, could order up just the block and have it sent out, and then send you back the core.

That would make the whole idea of blowing the used 4 cylinder more tolerable. If you didn't heavily damage the block, say just blew out some rings seals, or gaskets, fixing the issue and upgrading could still be affordable.

jetblackbimmer
06-29-2006, 10:54 PM
What about swapping a bigger 4 instead of a 6???

Dredder
06-29-2006, 11:03 PM
As for price it should be well below $10,000 and include a warranty and we will ship a built ready to install short block.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW Performance
For just a little under 10k you can have a s50/52 swap with a vf-supercharger thats going to get around 300rwhp to the wheels. Thats around 350hp crank with 15% drivetrain loss. You get the reliability and the power.
If I could have push the 4cyl around 200rwhp and maintin the reliability i would have done it. How long do people run high power 4banger?????? not for long. I opted for the swap.

"there's no replacement for displacement" !!!!AMEN!!!!!

mohaughn
06-29-2006, 11:16 PM
But if you get a 2 year warranty on the high power 4 banger that is a different story.

m3outtanowhere
06-30-2006, 12:33 AM
Ι cant believe how some dare to compare the 4pot with the 6pot. The 6pots is what BMW name stands for!! There is no real comparison. The six pot revs so free,it is so smooth,it is the perfect engine to have! And far more torque as well. And there WAS version of the ti to have a 6cyl as all know,the 323ti which is an amazing car!
Someone called the M42 or M44 high revving engine. Thats a big lie. They will never be high revving engines! And it will never be as reliable as stock with the dasc or with any supercharger. The stress on the engine parts
is not the same and the dasc doesnt include reprogrammed ECU and i/c as well which are its weak points!!!
I would chose the engine swap for sure. It gives you the potential for very big hp numbers!
And to be honest,i never considered the US E36 M3 as a genuine M3. If you had the option for the 3.2L 321hp or even the 3.0 286hp you wouldnt even think about superchargers!! THIS IS A HIGH REVVING ENGINE!!! The US M engines are just some M50 and M52 "factory upgrades".
If anyone of those who say they chose 4pot had lived with a BMW 6cyl they wouldnt even think about it !

You cut me man. you cut me real deep there. i have always envied europe for the cars they recieve. My m3 (240 hp u.s.) was never beat. And if that Eu spec motor is really that much better...well ...WELL -that sucks for us. Im gonna move to Germany for a year at least, REALLY, just for the m3 and the autobaun

DustenT
06-30-2006, 02:47 PM
If I could have push the 4cyl around 200rwhp and maintin the reliability i would have done it. How long do people run high power 4banger?????? not for long. I opted for the swap.

"there's no replacement for displacement" !!!!AMEN!!!!!

The DASC puts the Ti around 200rwhp, and it's incredibly reliable.

Forced induction is the replacement for displacement, and people that use that line usually don't know what a properly tuned 4 cylinder can do. Hillbillys say that kinda crap, no offense. :)

316i compact
06-30-2006, 03:26 PM
The DASC puts the Ti around 200rwhp, and it's incredibly reliable

I dont think that the DASC can reach 200rwhp without major mods. And sth more: i wouldn't go DASC for the fact that it is no intercooled. This is unacceptable in a engine which is getting 7-8 psi, and at any forced induction aplication. And no ecu reprogramming too.

DustenT
06-30-2006, 04:07 PM
I dont think that the DASC can reach 200rwhp without major mods. And sth more: i wouldn't go DASC for the fact that it is no intercooled. This is unacceptable in a engine which is getting 7-8 psi, and at any forced induction aplication. And no ecu reprogramming too.

Thanks you for confirming that you have no idea what you are talking about.

It's amazing that you know more about forced induction than the race team that designed the DASC. http://downingatlanta.com/da_composites_new.htm - for more info on Downing Atlanta.

Dyno of m44 with DASC: looks like 200hp to me. http://downingatlanta.com/images/power&torque.PDF

And lastly, the first paragraph of the DA spec sheet: We have developed both 1.9 liter and 1.8 liter BMW kits available for the Z3 and 3-series automobiles. Performance from both kits is very similar, with zero to sixty mph times in the 7.0 second range and under. While we are still in the final fuel curve calibration stage, our horsepower figures thus far are over 200 hp. Fuel mileage is essentially unchanged with our test cars achieving stock highway fuel mileage.

This forum would honestly be a much better place if people didn't post BS responses. If you don't know what you are talking about, sit back and let the people who do talk.

tastade
06-30-2006, 05:47 PM
What SCCA Solo class would each mod put me in? It appears that the supercharger would immediately put me in street modified and the M3 engine into modified, or would they both be street modified since the M3 engine was available in the 3 series (does it count as the same model)?
Engine block must be a production unit manufactured and
badged the same as the original standard or optional engine
for that model.
http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf page 96

I would hate to have to race next to modified mustangs just because I put in a supercharger that ups me to less than their stock power.

316i compact
06-30-2006, 06:47 PM
Thanks you for confirming that you have no idea what you are talking about.

It's amazing that you know more about forced induction than the race team that designed the DASC. http://downingatlanta.com/da_composites_new.htm - for more info on Downing Atlanta.

Dyno of m44 with DASC: looks like 200hp to me. http://downingatlanta.com/images/power&torque.PDF

And lastly, the first paragraph of the DA spec sheet:

This forum would honestly be a much better place if people didn't post BS responses. If you don't know what you are talking about, sit back and let the people who do talk.


Whos the one who dont know what he is talking about, u studip?
I wrote "I dont think that the DASC can reach 200RWHP without major mods". Do you know the meaning of RWHP????? It has a huge difference from just an hp number,which is crank hp. And you wrote "The DASC puts the Ti around 200rwhp". Who is the one who is misinforming the people in here???????? Who knows. Maybe u have reason to disinform people like this about DASC.
ANd yes, i am gonna say it one more time : DASC is no intercooled. This is unacceptable in a engine which is getting 7-8 psi, and at any forced induction aplication. HOW MANY FACTORY SUPERCHARGED CARS DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT INTERCOOLER/AIR-WATER COOLER?

tastade
06-30-2006, 06:57 PM
7-8 psi should be fine to run without an intercooler, anything over that would probably be a stretch though. Many stock 80s turbos had 7 or so psi boost with no intercooler and ran 150k miles without trouble (I am thinking of a Z31 300ZX). 7 or 8 psi boost is relatively low.

Besides, read this quote about the DASC from their website:
Unlike a turbocharger, the Eaton supercharger does not contribute to underhood heat. Our kit only increases the intake charge air by 69 degrees even when underhood temperatures are over 150 degrees Fahrenheit. Because our supercharger is hung off of the engine in a position that receives large amounts of airflow, our total system efficiency is very high. It is not a stretch to state that the Eaton supercharger in our application acts as a sort of intercooler itself. We did not need to add the expense or complication of a flow-through intercooler and the loss of boost that comes with its use.
A 69 degree F temp increase is much less than the average of over 150 degrees F / 7 PSI boost as typical (from other sources). That really is as effective as an intercooler.

DustenT
06-30-2006, 07:06 PM
Whos the one who dont know what he is talking about, u studip? HOW MANY FACTORY SUPERCHARGED CARS DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT INTERCOOLER/AIR-WATER COOLER?

I'm having a hard time understanding what you just posted. I think you called me stupid. :hug: I don't think you read what I posted, did you? It's not like 200wrhp is a magic number, is it? I've seen dynos of DASC'd cars that show between 170 and 210 hp at the wheels, it depends what else you have done for modifications to the car, what elevation you are at, humidy, temperature, dyno brand, etc... Ultimately, all that matters is that it provides a 40% increase in power (140x1.40=196).

I believe most of the factory supercharged cars that use the Eaton m62 and m90 aren't intercooled. The MB Kompressors and Pontiac aren't intercooled. The only one that I know of that IS intercooled in the new GM line (Saturn Redlines and Cobalt SS).

I agree that an intercooler would be nice for the DASC, but I don't think its at all necessary. I've been driving mine for 40k miles and I've never had a problem with heat or detonation. Adding an intercooler would only add more complexity to an amazingly well designed, maintenance free supercharger kit, I think this is the reason that DA didn't integrate one into the manifold.

This discussion has gotten trivial and off-topic. Let's try to keep the posts informative and accurate. Again, this is a thread for I6 vs. SC discussions, you can start a new thread if you want to use to your ricer logic to further educate me. Thanks.

tastade
06-30-2006, 07:11 PM
Read my updated post one above as well Dusten, you are right, there is no need for an intercooler for this application.

96cali
06-30-2006, 08:00 PM
I know for a fact that Lisa's Ti at www.understeer.com (http://www.understeer.com) ran over 190 rwhp on a hot summer day- I was there, in fact I thought it was 196rwhp. Only drivetrain mods were exhaust and flywheel/clutch. Since then I think they've installed Nick G's software and a pulley:

From Understeer.com
"After getting sick of removing Downing's rising rate fuel pressure regulator at every oil change, I decided to upgrade to Technique Tuning's Stage 3 software and fuel injector package. The set also does away with the DISA valve and the fuel injector air bypass lines, so it really cuts down on the underhood clutter. With the custom tuning and addition fuel, it's possible to up the boost as well, so an IIAS 3.4" DASC pulley went on at the same time to step the boost up to ~10psi. With the stock DASC setup the car dynoed at 191rwhp, it's now up to 200rwhp with much smoother mid throttle acceleration and lots more torque. Stock DASC versus Stage 3 upgrade dyno."

mss318ti
06-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Dredder: Just trying to clarify your statement you think it is possible to get a rebuilt S50/52, all accessories, install the engine, and supercharge it for under $10K. If so then do it, i dont see it happening. Maybe a used engine but then how do you know how reliable the engine is or its history, again this is a far stretch in my opinion? Say if you were to find a good priced used M3 engine and supercharge that explain to me how an engine with 100,000 miles or so is in better condition to be supercharged than a totally rebuilt 0 mileage M44 that has been built solely to be supercharged. Your statement about there being no replacement for displacement is not exactly correct but I understand why you would say that and in the beginning of my first reply I even stated that the S50/52 had more potential to make massive power because of its larger displacement. Also good job on the swap, it shows you do have a good deal of technical know how. Lastly Im sorry you cant make a four banger as you put it get more than 200HP and still be reliable, we can, we have, and we will stand behind them when we sell them. Mohaughn: If you were to get the Stage 2 and want to upgrade later on to the rebuilt block we could easily send just the block alone without the supercharger with it, in fact thats what we are hoping people will want to do. But the option will be out there for people to simply buy the whole Stage 3 engine at one time, and yes the warranties overlap in most areas when you upgrade so you are covered while you have the new parts as well.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW Performance

Dredder
06-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Dredder: Just trying to clarify your statement you think it is possible to get a rebuilt S50/52, all accessories, install the engine, and supercharge it for under $10K. If so then do it, i dont see it happening. Maybe a used engine but then how do you know how reliable the engine is or its history, again this is a far stretch in my opinion? Say if you were to find a good priced used M3 engine and supercharge that explain to me how an engine with 100,000 miles or so is in better condition to be supercharged than a totally rebuilt 0 mileage M44 that has been built solely to be supercharged. Your statement about there being no replacement for displacement is not exactly correct but I understand why you would say that and in the beginning of my first reply I even stated that the S50/52 had more potential to make massive power because of its larger displacement. Also good job on the swap, it shows you do have a good deal of technical know how. Lastly Im sorry you cant make a four banger as you put it get more than 200HP and still be reliable, we can, we have, and we will stand behind them when we sell them. Mohaughn: If you were to get the Stage 2 and want to upgrade later on to the rebuilt block we could easily send just the block alone without the supercharger with it, in fact thats what we are hoping people will want to do. But the option will be out there for people to simply buy the whole Stage 3 engine at one time, and yes the warranties overlap in most areas when you upgrade so you are covered while you have the new parts as well.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW PerformanceMy friend, i there now........:)
That’s with a professional swap installer...If I was to put vf-SC with no install that would put me under $10K....That’s not my goal right now...I think the TI is done with all the mods. I need a daily driver. I need to concentrate on boosting my 325is. I'll be there soon with stock ECU tuned courtesy of me...... :cool:

mss318ti
06-30-2006, 10:02 PM
Sorry, I dont quite understand what you are saying.

Greg
SCRIVNER BMW Performance

Negrodamus
07-28-2006, 05:04 PM
I guess It would always depend on budget.... How come people who couldnt afford the e36 m3 motor settle for a e36 328 motor or e36 325 motor. They always go for much cheaper that the m3 motors and aren't driven as hard. With m3 header upgrade mod m3 cams and appropriate chip tuning I would think that this would be a good alternative cause there's alot of those motors around going for $1k up to $2500. Heck you could even get a wrecked e36 325 or 328 car for less that a M3 motor as a donor. Once you drop in the above non M3 motors you could get a supercharger and be just as quick or maybe even quicker that a M3 but for less money. This being said would still put a increase on the worth of the 318ti even though you are not swapping in a M3 motor. Its just crazy how unreasonably priced German motors are compaired to other car makers which sometimes makes motor swap's with bimmers not as likely. Me? Consider me a swap meet tuner I look for the cheapest and most practical engine mods or swaps, heck when I eventually get a 318ti I would go this route to be honnest what better props could you get for putting in something non M3 and be able to beat M3's with it?

Negrodamus