Anyone have experience with ApexI SAFC II? [Archive]

DustenT

08-25-2005, 06:40 PM

You don't need a blow off valve with a Supercharger. Its useless.

Dave

I know...I was just saying this would be great to help tune the lean issues some of us are having with the DASC. Some people on the forum have turbo kits on their cars, and being able to run a vent to atmosphere bov would be nice. I've gone over (on the yahoo board) replacing the bypass valve on the DASC with a bov, but apparently they do different things.

AzzKickr

10-12-2005, 02:05 PM

So what you're saying is that a BOV can not be used on a turbo-ed M42/M44 (like my Mosselman setup) ? And why not ?

DustenT

10-12-2005, 03:30 PM

So what you're saying is that a BOV can not be used on a turbo-ed M42/M44 (like my Mosselman setup) ? And why not ?

Blow-off valve that vent to atmosphere are typically not used on cars with Mass Air Flow meters. When the BOV blows off, it releases air that was previously measured by the MAF meter. This usually means the car will stumble and run REALLY rich at idle or anytime the BOV releases air. Cars that respond well to BOVs (that vent to atmosphere) use MAP sensors instead of MAF sensors. The basic difference is this: A MAP sensor reads the PRESSURE of the intake tract, while a MAF measures the mass of the air as it comes in. A MAF system needs to stay sealed to work well. Some production turbo vehicles come with a sealed version of a BOV calles a bypass-valve. A bypasss-valve does the same thing as a BOV, only instead of blowing to atmosphere, it blows back into the intake tract, thus never losing any air that was measured by the MAF meter.

The Apexi unit that I had mentioned is capable of montioring the intake pressure, probably via an add-on MAP sensor. It also probably piggybacks the MAF meter to change the sensor voltage.

I had a turbo civic back in the day and I loved the BOV sound. But apparently you don't really need one unless you are running 10+ psi. If you do run one, I would try to vent it back into the intake tract, anywhere after the MAF meter.

Good luck!

AzzKickr

10-13-2005, 03:37 PM

Great explanation !

Thx !

Now I know how to solve this problem. Either putt a BOV on it and let it vent into the pipe again that connects the MAF and the turbo, or install a bypass valve or have a look at Apexi's solution.

Thx again !

AzzKickr

10-14-2005, 03:14 PM

I'm about to buy the Apexi SAFC-II. Well, at least in the nearby future. I plan on buying a decent BOV (Apexi, HKS,..) along with the SAFC-II and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Hope this will feed the engine enough to ensure good performance in conjunction with the turbo.

TiPerformance

10-14-2005, 10:03 PM

Wideband Oxygen sensor and a spilt second piggy back would be my choice.

DustenT

10-14-2005, 10:39 PM

I agree. A wideband oxygen sensor is a must! I love mine, it makes me feel a lot better about running high rpms with full boost. I'm using the PLX Devices R500 which lets me monitor EGT, AFR, Knock, RPM, etc...Plus it is capable of datalogging with or without a laptop plugged in.

I think AzzKickr is looking for something to use so he can use a BOV to atmosphere. I'm not sure if the split second piggyback can do that. It would be nice to use something that completely eliminated the MAF sensor and replaces it with a MAP sensor.

TiPerformance

10-22-2005, 05:52 AM

To remove the MAF you would probably have to remove the coding in the PCM for the MAF so it would strictly rely on the MAP sensor.

I have heard alot of good things about Splt Second, I am not sure if you can run a BOV with a split second unit however they have alot of satisfied BMW customers.

I have a Digital Horse Power power programmer for my 3.4L Grand Am and I have the option to turn on and off the alot of parameters Maf being one of them. There is only one thing that I don't miss about my TI, and that is the aftermarket is just not there. I like playing with my cars and the TI just didn't cut it.

mischief

10-22-2005, 06:47 AM

im pushing over 22psi and i dont have a basspass valve
i never did like the DASC setup

DustenT

10-24-2005, 05:23 PM

im pushing over 22psi and i dont have a basspass valve
i never did like the DASC setup

I'm not running 22psi, but at least mine fits under the hood! :icon_poke
That is what I like about the DASC setup.

What else do you have done to your car that you can run so much boost??

mischief

10-25-2005, 06:16 AM

I'm not running 22psi, but at least mine fits under the hood! :icon_poke
That is what I like about the DASC setup.
What else do you have done to your car that you can run so much boost??
Im not telling :P

DustenT

10-25-2005, 04:09 PM

Im not telling :P

Oh, come on now, don't be party pooper...

From the looks of it, the SC unit is the same as the DASC, right? M62? I'm curious where you found a pulley that makes 22psi. I have been debating getting a smaller pulley and bumping my boost up to 12~14psi, but I didn't think it was safe. Do you have any internal work done?

TiPerformance

10-25-2005, 10:20 PM

22 PSI on a M62..... you sure something not giving you a false reading? What kind of tuning is done, what size pulley and what kind of #'s are you putting down. If you can't answer that I am going to have to call BS.

From the looks of it, it appears to be a eaton M62 from a 2.3L mercedes benz with the stock electric clutch pulley.

mischief

11-01-2005, 03:03 AM

ok look at the pic see anything diffrent

http://community.webshots.com/photo/281684490/481871962ZkieHW#

TiPerformance

11-02-2005, 04:01 AM

Looks like an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to me. Pics of the supercharger setup would be nice.

DustenT

11-02-2005, 03:18 PM

ok look at the pic see anything diffrent
http://community.webshots.com/photo/281684490/481871962ZkieHW#

I can't really see anything from that picture. That looks like a fuel pressure regulator, but I can't tell if the top hose (longer,narrow) is a vacuum line or an additional fuel line. Are you running an additional injector? More pics please.

mischief

11-04-2005, 04:03 AM

still cant see ok heres a other clue and the last 3 belts

TiPerformance

11-04-2005, 05:28 AM

robcarync

11-06-2005, 11:21 PM

just an interesting thought :

COSMO Racing Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator can provide precise and consistent fuel flow with boosts up to as much as twice the stock unit provides. With this unit, you can adjust from 20 psi to 80psi, or as much as your fuel pump can sustain

honestly, i dont even understand what all this psi stuff is...i know its pressure of fuel i suppose but i dont know the significance for 22psi...but this regulator says it can adjust it from 20-80 psi....and if 22 is a lot and nearly unbelievable...it seems 80psi would be impossible?

what is the stock psi...would you get any gain from adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to a car with no turbo or supercharger? just curious cause i like to learn new stuff and i dont know what all this means

AlaskaBlue

11-06-2005, 11:46 PM

Mischief I have always wondered what the heck your set-up was. Stop keeping us in the dark and lets us know what you have done to make the beast coming out of your hood work at 22 psi.

mischief

11-07-2005, 04:07 AM

Wow your running a modified crank pulley and have 3 belts, nothing new in the supercharging world.
The real question that you have yet to answer is how are you getting 22 PSI.
What supercharger is it? (like I said before from your picture it looks to be a M62 from a Mercedes benz)
What pulley is on the supercharger? (is it the stock electric clutch pulley from mercedes?)
Any dyno #'s or 1/4 mile times?
What does your tuning consist of? Just an adjustable FPR?
It is your car I would hope that you would know some of these things, if not all.
I am still calling BS untill some of these questions are answered, 22 PSI on a eaton M62 just seems a little unrealistic to me. Also no pictures of the supercharger mounted, or anything. If it were me I would be proud of my accomplishments.... that is if it was real and worked.

ok a DASC runs of the serpntine belt limiting the psi it can make
my car has its own belt and custom pully on the crackshaft
the cutsom pully is big very big thats where all the psi comes from.
the blower is modifed to hanlde lil more boots so is the engine

just an interesting thought :

honestly, i dont even understand what all this psi stuff is...i know its pressure of fuel i suppose but i dont know the significance for 22psi...but this regulator says it can adjust it from 20-80 psi....and if 22 is a lot and nearly unbelievable...it seems 80psi would be impossible?

what is the stock psi...would you get any gain from adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to a car with no turbo or supercharger? just curious cause i like to learn new stuff and i dont know what all this means

on the feul regulator i have 60psi

car runs great no knock runs great but the blower needs new bearing

robcarync

11-07-2005, 04:41 AM

so what is the 60 psi mean and what does the 22 psi mean...

what is the stock psi?

and lastly, is a FPR only benefitial if you have a supercharger/turbo or what would happen if you stuck a FPR on a not turboed/superd car and boosted it up to 60 psi...any gains in that?

TiPerformance

11-07-2005, 04:53 AM

ok a DASC runs of the serpntine belt limiting the psi it can make
my car has its own belt and custom pully on the crackshaft
the cutsom pully is big very big thats where all the psi comes from.
the blower is modifed to hanlde lil more boots so is the engine.

Sorry, but 22 PSI is total BS. There are obvious reasons that you aren't hitting 22PSI and I will let some of the other guys see if they can't figure it out first.

robcarync

11-07-2005, 07:06 AM

TIPerformance...you seem like a knowledgable fellow...any insight as to my questions above? im just trying to learn about my car/cars in general for that matter.

nuvolarossa

11-07-2005, 02:56 PM

Hi Mischief,
I'm doing a similar setup with a eaton supercharger off a mercedes-benz 230k (M62) with its magnetic clutch with another belt only for the S/C. What clutch has your blower (It's the original MB pulley)? You can activate it by a switch or what system are you using for the clutch? What fuel regulator have you? The last question is: the ecu and injectors are originals?

I need help:eek: :wink: :biggrin:
I will appreciate you if you will answer me,
thank you

mischief

11-08-2005, 05:46 AM

this is why i dont like to talk about my setup

nuvolarossa

PM sent

nuvolarossa

11-08-2005, 02:26 PM

this is why i dont like to talk about my setup

nuvolarossa

PM sent
Thank you mischief:smile:

TiPerformance

11-08-2005, 10:01 PM

this is why i dont like to talk about my setup

Lack of pictures and technical knowlege might be the reason that you don't like to talk about it.

22 PSI with a M62 is going to be nearly impossible, unless you are spinning it at an extremely high RPM and then expect premature failure of parts. Even then being non intercooled you are pumping an extremely hot charge into your engine. And yet again stock compression ratio on the M42/M44 is 10:1, and adding forced induction in theory increases the compression ratio.

What are you doing to control detonation?

What doesn't pan out is that you are using a "very Large pulley" on the supercharger, why is it that everyone else goes with a smaller pulley to increase boost pressure?

Also you have your fuel pressure set to 60PSI? I hope you have a rising rate FMU or a piggyback controller to compensate or your car is going to be running very rich at idle.

I bet with 22PSI that you could give RAiMA a real run for his money :wink:

DustenT

11-08-2005, 11:15 PM

this is why i dont like to talk about my setup

Why wouldn't you want to talk about your setup? It seems to me that if you mount a supercharger so it sticks out of the hood, you are looking for some attention. We just want to know what you are doing, that the rest of us aren't, to get your car to run at 22psi without a problem.

You mentioned before that you aren't running a bypass valve. Does this mean that at idle you are running boost? Stock fuel pressure is about 45psi at the rail, so you should be running about 15lbs of boost at idle to use the 60psi of fuel you are feeding it. Even if you are completely saturating with gas, you must be close to 10lbs of boost.

When you say you are running a very large pulley, you must be talking about the crank pulley, right.

BMWs don't do well with more than ~8psi of boost because they rely on the knock sensor(s) to retard that timing enough to avoid detonation. At 8 psi, without the water/alcohol spray on, I see knock almost constantly. You CAN run more boost than that, but the horespower gain is almost nothing, unless you can adjust the timing to avoid detonation.

If you have some super top-secret setup that you won't talk about, it seems like a waste to even be part of an automotive forum. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the others, this is BS unless you can explain.

HuGo

01-20-2007, 12:28 AM

LoL, this thread is funny.

Broke Drift

01-25-2007, 04:13 AM

Blow-off valve that vent to atmosphere are typically not used on cars with Mass Air Flow meters. When the BOV blows off, it releases air that was previously measured by the MAF meter. This usually means the car will stumble and run REALLY rich at idle or anytime the BOV releases air. Cars that respond well to BOVs (that vent to atmosphere) use MAP sensors instead of MAF sensors. The basic difference is this: A MAP sensor reads the PRESSURE of the intake tract, while a MAF measures the mass of the air as it comes in. A MAF system needs to stay sealed to work well. Some production turbo vehicles come with a sealed version of a BOV calles a bypass-valve. A bypasss-valve does the same thing as a BOV, only instead of blowing to atmosphere, it blows back into the intake tract, thus never losing any air that was measured by the MAF meter.

The Apexi unit that I had mentioned is capable of montioring the intake pressure, probably via an add-on MAP sensor. It also probably piggybacks the MAF meter to change the sensor voltage.

I had a turbo civic back in the day and I loved the BOV sound. But apparently you don't really need one unless you are running 10+ psi. If you do run one, I would try to vent it back into the intake tract, anywhere after the MAF meter.

Good luck!

i have a BOV on my mosselman turbo...

FATHER

01-25-2007, 01:18 PM

I agree with Dustent, Mischief i think is not horse power gain with 22psi of boost in a m44 or m42 engine with stock component.. you have a Dyno read or 1/4 mile time, i saw some of yours videos and i think that my ex-TI with the 10psi of boost run more than your... so explain little more about your "setup":icon_poke

AzzKickr

02-02-2007, 07:55 PM

Back on-topic again (well ,almost): I've decided not to buy an Apexi SAFC-II unit but an ALpha-N unit instead. This will allow me to run without any air flow meter or MAF/MAP sensor and thus eliminating any restrictions the air intake might pose.

As soon as I actually have it and get it installed (and fix the other engine probs I have) I'll post results.

pdxmotorhead

02-03-2007, 11:38 AM

Without at least 1 sensor(MAF/MAP/AFM), FYI MAP don't impact air flow, you will not get the most power out of the motor, and your very likely going to learn the hard lessons of detonation....

Go easy and have fun!

Dave

AzzKickr

02-03-2007, 04:14 PM

Without at least 1 sensor(MAF/MAP/AFM), you will not get the most power out of the motor...
Go easy and have fun!

Dave

Sorry to say so but you obviously don't know what an Alpha-N unit is ...
An Alpha-N controller is the best way to get the most out of an egine, NA or FI. Downside is the price of such a controller and the extensive programming.

HuGo

02-04-2007, 08:18 AM

Sorry to say so but you obviously don't know what an Alpha-N unit is ...
An Alpha-N controller is the best way to get the most out of an egine, NA or FI. Downside is the price of such a controller and the extensive programming.

Let me know how it goes, im looking for something to custom tune my car to get as much power as i can safely with a 10psi pulley.

mohaughn

02-04-2007, 05:42 PM

Sorry to say so but you obviously don't know what an Alpha-N unit is ...
An Alpha-N controller is the best way to get the most out of an egine, NA or FI. Downside is the price of such a controller and the extensive programming.

I think it is overkill if you are not going for a full blown race motor. How much extra power do you think this engine will produce with an alpha-n unit vs. a map sensor? Probably not a lot. And not to mention if you take the car to different locations that have extreme differences in altitude, you have to retune your car. I guess if you bought really nice alpha-n controller that can accept data from an O2 sensor you can do on the fly tuning and not have that issue.

How do you plan to tap into the RPM sensor? From reading a lot about the megasquirt system the most difficult part that people have is tapping into the RPM sensor and getting a good reliable reading of RPM.

I think it is cool that people are doing different things and trying new technology but in the end an alpha-n fuel controller on a street motor seems like it would be way to much hassle.