UUC Stage 2 vs Stock ti clutch

[cossieturbo]

This may be my 1st post, but just a heads up. I have just purchased the UUC Stage 2 clutch with the 91-93 M5 setup. I started measuring and weighing all the bits and decided to bury all the questions about weight, and such vs the factory clutch. A new 1995 ti factory clutch is in my hands, but I am just waiting for the factory flywheel. Pictures, measurements and weights will be available in the near future. Thanks.

cossietrubo

[ZeroG]

This may be my 1st post, but just a heads up. I have just purchased the UUC Stage 2 clutch with the 91-93 M5 setup. I started measuring and weighing all the bits and decided to bury all the questions about weight, and such vs the factory clutch. A new 1995 ti factory clutch is in my hands, but I am just waiting for the factory flywheel. Pictures, measurements and weights will be available in the near future. Thanks.

cossietrubo
I got one installed bitchen mod. You will notice the RPM's climb like a bullet.

-Chad

[cossieturbo]

thanks for the input mate. I'm looking forward to adding this mod before the Supercharger. I just want to offer actual measurements and such so that in some way this info might help others. I am also comparing 3 throwout bearing... UUC (came with clutch kit), 318ti and M3. Yes, I have issues.

cossieturbo

[cossieturbo]

Got all the bits in hand and will start measurements & taking pics tonight. The factory flywheel really is a scary chunk of 27lb steel. The total weight of the factory package is about 10lbs heavier and the way the outer most weight is distributed, it looks to be about the same, but flipped. I'll give more details later. Hope this helps someone.

cossieturbo
Erik H. R.

[cali-ti]

any more info? installed yet? opinions/thoughts/experiences?

i'm contemplating a supercharger and am thinking i should replace my clutch in anticipation of that (212k on my original stock one).

[Silver00spike]

1. you need this clutch package before supercharging
2. WITH supercharger, the first and second gears will feel like wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[96cali]

What makes the rpms climb more or 1st/2nd feel different? Just the elimination of slipage? Aren't RPM's measured at the engine? Why would something downstream affect it? Not so much challenging these statements as looking to be educated by those in the know.

BTW does ayone else think it's cool as **** that a 9 year old Ti like mine can use a clutch design from a 14 year old M5 or the RSM's from a 2 year old M3? I do.:2pistole:

[cali-ti]

the lightened flywheel (8.5 lbs vs 27 lbs for the stock one). just a guess ;)

[L84THSKY]

I was going to put in the lightweight flywheel as my next mod after the LSD. Now that I purchased the supercharger, I wanna see what that does first. What I want most is better acceleration in first and second gear. If the supercharger does that, why put in the lightweight flywheel?

I can't get a consensus on whether any of the lightweight flywheels don't rattle when the car is idling.

Another reason I went with the supercharger over the flywheel is cost of install. I'll probably end up putting in the supercharger myself, total cost $2000.00. Cost of the flywheel with install will be over $1000.00. I figure for the extra $1000.00 I'm getting more value overall.

the lightened flywheel (8.5 lbs vs 27 lbs for the stock one). just a guess ;)

[cali-ti]

i have 212k on my original clutch. if i'm going in to do the clutch, i might as well do the m5 clutch/lightweight flywheel combo IF it performs pretty much like stock (no rattles at idle or other rpm ranges) except for the much higher clamping force :) i figure i'll be doing the install with both (clutch/flywheel and supercharger).

[cossieturbo]

Sorry mates for the delay. I got back into town last week and have had a ton of work to catch up on. The clutch is not in yet as I am waiting for the flywheel lock tool and the Pilot Bearing puller. Some shops have them, but many in my area do not. They just "pretend" that they have done a proper job. I only use Bello Motorsport (W.P.B. FL) and I will be donating these tools to him (Ernie). As for rattle problems... The general consensus on the after market clutches is that the UUC Stage 2 has some light rattle when 1st installed and then it reduces or dissipates. I'll know before 10/13/05 as it's going on a trip with me. At work... have to go... I'll be back later today.

I plan on doing the SuperCharger as well, but all other things 1st. Also have to sort through this weak LSD issue.

cossieturbo
Erik

[96cali]

the lightened flywheel (8.5 lbs vs 27 lbs for the stock one). just a guess ;)

DOH! :tongue:

What I want most is better acceleration in first and second gear. If the supercharger does that, why put in the lightweight flywheel?

I can't get a consensus on whether any of the lightweight flywheels don't rattle when the car is idling.

I rode in bimmer95's ti (http://www.understeer.com/318ti.shtml) with an aluminum M3 flywheel before and after getting a DASC. Did not hear any rattles but it was a short ride around town. There is an arguement against lightweight flywheels with a supercharger because once your RPM's are up it takes more work to keep them there. I suspect the fun of a LW fly is worth it. :biggrin:

[cali-ti]

Sorry mates for the delay. I got back into town last week and have had a ton of work to catch up on. The clutch is not in yet as I am waiting for the flywheel lock tool and the Pilot Bearing puller.
where are you getting these tools? sounds like i'll need them too if i'm going to do this upgrade.
I plan on doing the SuperCharger as well, but all other things 1st. Also have to sort through this weak LSD issue.
which weak LSD issue?

[cossieturbo]

Well as for the lighter flywheel (UUC S2), if you truly were to look at the physics of a piston engine, it requires a micro bit of extra gas/RPM to maintain a constant speed vs a stock flywheel, all things being equal less weight. I have been over this a million times on the SR20DE.NET site and with friends in the race & street race world. It really does not make enough of a difference to even think about it. My Nissan was transformed into a dream when I changed the flywheel. A supercharger for the BMW M42/M44 engine will make no difference at a constant speed, as its bypass valve will have the Supercharger offline. Don’t worry about it mate…

As for the tools... I am looking for the part numbers as I have then somewhere. The fly wheel lock makes things a bit easier for the hack mechanics we take our rides to and the Pilot Bearing should always be changed so make sure the tool is available. Most Snap-on (or similar) tool companies can supply these bits. I'll get back to you with the part numbers.

Now the UUC Stage 2 clutch is set up with quite a bit of weight removed over the factory setup, about 10lbs. Basically the factory flywheel is a monster. If you have a factory clutch in hand and the 91-93 M5 clutch, you would think... Cripes!!! The M5 clutch has a lot of weight over the 318ti, but then you look at that mountainously heavy 318ti flywheel... all questions stop there. Unbelievable slab with moving parts inside!!! The overall weight distribution has shifted into the pressure-plate on the UUC S2 setup. The S2 should turn out to be the best layout for the street/track driver. I will let you know soon what I find. More to come.

There is a post on this site about a LSD burn out with the Supercharger. My racing blokes disagree... They say the Disc style factory LSD should be fine with a good fluid. I'll keep researching this.

Erik
cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

Well as for the lighter flywheel (UUC S2), if you truly were to look at the physics of a piston engine, it requires a micro bit of extra gas/RPM to maintain a constant speed vs a stock flywheel, all things being equal less weight. I have been over this a million times on the SR20DE.NET site and with friends in the race & street race world. It really does not make enough of a difference to even think about it. My Nissan was transformed into a dream when I changed the flywheel. A supercharger for the BMW M42/M44 engine will make no difference at a constant speed, as its bypass valve will have the Supercharger offline. Don’t worry about it mate…

As for the tools... I am looking for the part numbers as I have then somewhere. The fly wheel lock makes things a bit easier for the hack mechanics we take our rides to and the Pilot Bearing should always be changed so make sure the tool is available. Most Snap-on (or similar) tool companies can supply these bits. I'll get back to you with the part numbers.

Now the UUC Stage 2 clutch is set up with quite a bit of weight removed over the factory setup, about 10lbs. Basically the factory flywheel is a monster. If you have a factory clutch in hand and the 91-93 M5 clutch, you would think... Cripes!!! The M5 clutch has a lot of weight over the 318ti, but then you look at that mountainously heavy 318ti flywheel... all questions stop there. Unbelievable slab with moving parts inside!!! The overall weight distribution has shifted into the pressure-plate on the UUC S2 setup. The S2 should turn out to be the best layout for the street/track driver. I will let you know soon what I find. More to come.

There is a post on this site about a LSD burn out with the Supercharger. My racing blokes disagree... They say the Disc style factory LSD should be fine with a good fluid. I'll keep researching this.

Erik
cossieturbo
which diff, the stock 3.45 small case LSD? i would highly consider getting a large case diff if you haven't done it already. you could even get a particular gear set and lockup you want if you have a place like www.diffsonline.com rebuild it.

TIA for throwing the part numbers up when you find 'em. i'll definitely want to make sure i have everything before doing the job.

[cossieturbo]

Here are some part numbers.
The BMW flywheel lock is: 88-88-6-112-170 priced at $50.00 (through dealer with CCA discount) or what looks to be a General lock: 88-88-6-112-160 $30
(www.samstagsales.com/bmwtools.htm) or 88-88-6-112-300 $27

The Pilot bearing puller should be 88-88-6-111-088 (I'll double check), but it can be found on www.bavauto.com at $45. This is a common tool.


HERE ARE SOME TOOL WEB SITES:
www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/BMWM/POR_BMWM_TOOLS1_pg1.htm
Assenmacher Specialty Tools 303-530-2424 www.baumtools.com
Baum Tools Unlimited, Inc. 800-848-6657 www.asttool.com
Schley Products, Inc. 714-693-7666 store.autotoolexpress.com/schleyprodin.html
www.bavauto.com
www.technictool.com/bmwtools.htm
www.monstermarketplace.com/googlesearch.asp?q=bmw%20tools
www.samstagsales.com/bmwtools.htm
[url]
I hope this helps

[cali-ti]

it would be awesome if you could do a step-by-step article when you put in your flywheel and clutch :biggrin: it'll probably be a good bit before i do it. need to get tools (including a transmission jack or a jack with a removable saddle and a trans adapter). oh yeah, and the $1000 for the flywheel/clutch combo :tongue:

[cossieturbo]

I would not mind doing a step by step when I have time, but it would be without pics of my car as I will probably be at work while Bello Motorsport (west palm beach FL) does the install. It's not that much different from many rear wheel drive cars, it's just important to grease the proper areas before the bits go back together... and make sure you have all the parts you "should" replace. Too many poor souls have their clutch done only to find something little that was not replaced and then breaks. Out comes the trany again!
I have lost all of my connections with a Lift that they can spare and we are in a town-house for the next year. I miss having a spot to work on my autos, but I will find another soon and we are into another house once I finish with this place. All the best.

cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

certainly your list of "do not forgets" would be much appreciated. i've never done a clutch replacement, so i'm somewhat hesitant, but look forward to learning how it's done and doing it myself (as long as i'm not insane to do so :tongue:).

[Dredder]

No need for somebody to do another Clutch DIY. These instructions are pretty easy to follow. It covers pretty much evrything you need.http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/E36-Clutch_Replace/E36-Clutch_Replace.htm

[cossieturbo]

Ok, the clutch is in and it is outstanding, but the car had to go back in for a small problem with the new rear main seal. The old Clutch was in great shape after 130,000, but the Throwout Bearing and Dual-Mass Flywheel were done. So the short road time I had the UUC running went as follows.

It is a little more abrupt over the factory unit. This has more to do with it being new and me being use to the Dual-Junk Flywheel that was in there. my 1st response was WOW, this feels great!!! it really feels more link the sports cars I have enjoyed in the past.

As for the gear noise, there is a little bit, but nothing I would even think about. It should get better as the clutch breaks in.

I replaced just about everything and my bloke Ernie (Bello Motorsport) still thinks I'm nuts for dropping off every possible part one could ever need while in there. Plus I have all the torque specs for every major bolt on paper for him. I'm a bit off.

I have to conclude that the only thing to do for the best all around performance/street balance is to buy the UUC Stage II. If anything changes I'll let everone know. Best to all.

P.S. The Pilot Bearing tool I purchased broke and the Pilot stayed so Ernie used an old trick to get it out. Packed grease and then used a tool to create presure.

cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

which clutch kit did you go with? i think they offer three different options (stock bmw m5, sachs performance clutch and then a sachs race clutch or something).

EDIT: now that you're all done, could you PM me a complete parts list of all the stuff you used? i'm anal retentive like you too and tend to replace everything i can when refreshing/installing. thanks :)

[Panzer_M]

tax return money is buying this, and a new set of Brembo Slotteds F&R for looks mostly....:(...but I hope the LTW Fly will free up some power in the M42 or just make it more fun. Oh, and i hope to toss about 20$ into a test pipe to get rid of my Cat.(For race purposes only)

plus with the UUC S2 and E34 Clutch, i am adding a UUC S/S clutch line and Redline MT90 Fluid to the Tranny(Supposed to knock out/down the chatter)

[cossieturbo]

"Cali-Ti" - The clutch kit I chose was the factory 91-93 M5 setup as it is more then enough to handle the 200 ish HP from the upcoming Supercharger. For parts... E-mail me your last 7 VIN digits and I will try to run up a parts list for you between my 2 fun jobs (actually only one is fun...).

"Panzer-M" - Top show on the UUC Clutch line. It's the one thing I though about getting that I did not. When I swap the brake lines for S.S. then I will swap that as well. As for the Redline... I use a Redline ATF D4 as it is recommended for my 220 trany. Yours might be different.


More details to come.

cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

i PM'd you. thanks in advance for the info :)

also, i checked UUC's site again and there are actually FOUR options for clutches.

[Panzer_M]

"Cali-Ti" - The clutch kit I chose was the factory 91-93 M5 setup as it is more then enough to handle the 200 ish HP from the upcoming Supercharger. For parts... E-mail me your last 7 VIN digits and I will try to run up a parts list for you between my 2 fun jobs (actually only one is fun...).

"Panzer-M" - Top show on the UUC Clutch line. It's the one thing I though about getting that I did not. When I swap the brake lines for S.S. then I will swap that as well. As for the Redline... I use a Redline ATF D4 as it is recommended for my 220 trany. Yours might be different.


More details to come.

cossieturbo

really, the fluid has been the last thing I have to decide on. UUC says MT90, while I heard a Mix of MTL with 700cc of ATF kill the chatter. :(

[cossieturbo]

I will try to remember to ask Ernie Bello (Bello Motorsport 561-686-1941). He has had a life time of playing with this sort of thing. We put the ATF Redline in and so far it's fine, but I think that other fluids will work. So many fluids, so many opinions and so little time.

This is my setup...
UUC Stage 2 Flywheel for an E36 M3
91-93 M5 factory clutch disc and pressure plate
E36 M3 Throwout bearing
318ti Throwout bearing arm
318ti Slave and Master



cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

hmmmm .... now what to use as a clutch setup when i go to the e46 m3 6-speed trans ... hmmmm

[cossieturbo]

nice!

[cossieturbo]

March 17th and things are not great. There is a strong vibration that would make one believe that the Engine is missing. It starts at idle and is most pronounced between 3k – 4k RPM. I have replaced every bit tied to a poor running Engine short of the Timing Chain parts, Fuel Filter. Fuel Pump… Here’s what I replaced:

Front & Rear Knock Sensor
Starter (old)
Intake manifold Gasket
Fuel Injectors
Fuel Injector Vacuum hose system
Fuel Pressure regulator
Spark Plugs
Spark Plug Wires
Coil (damaged threads and old)
Water Pump & Pulley
Thermostat
Radiator
Coolant Hoses (All)


NO CHANGE!!!
Problem still there and I'm getting sick of it. This is what I am looking at for this issue:

-Improper balance on Flywheel and or Clutch causing resonance vibration. The whole setup comes out Monday or Tuesday and is going to be balanced.
-Clogged Fuel Filter. (not likely)
-Front Pully Damper (Crank Pulley).


Please note. Though many times parts, Aftermarket and or Factory, are well balanced from new there can always be one that is not. The rule of thumb for my cars is to ALWAYS have the Pressure Plate balanced with the Flywheel and I did not do it this time. If this turns out to be the problem then I just wasted time and money not following my own rules. Lesson learned. If this does not solve the problem then say godbye to the "Ti" and a hello to a WRX or SRT-4 or A3 or something similar.

cossieturbo

[L84THSKY]

I'm gonna have the ltw flywheel and clutch put in soon. Which fluid is the correct one? Where can I get it?

really, the fluid has been the last thing I have to decide on. UUC says MT90, while I heard a Mix of MTL with 700cc of ATF kill the chatter. :(

[Panzer_M]

Redline MT90

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Redline-MT90-Red-Line-MT-90-Manual-Trans-Gear-Oil_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQitemZ8023101214QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[L84THSKY]

Is that a good price? How much do I need?

Redline MT90

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Redline-MT90-Red-Line-MT-90-Manual-Trans-Gear-Oil_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQitemZ8023101214QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[snuggz]

Bentley says 1.0 liter -- which is 1.1 quarts, technically...

[cossieturbo]

Red Line is the way to go...

Just dropped the car at the shop again. The general consensus between myself and 2 Technicians is that the something is improperly balanced within the UUC Stage 2 kit (with M5 Clutch). One Tech said that the BMW (and others) Pressure Plate is most likely the cause. Here is the dilemma though. If you get the Flywheel and Pressure Place balanced by a shop who’s machine is not properly calibrated then things could be worse then before. If you are going to have it balanced then it needs to be setup right.

Tips for balancing:
-use a marker to draw an alignment mark from the Pressure Plate to the Flywheel to match the 2 pieces at the same point when reassembled.
-number each bolt and put the corresponding numbers on the Pressure Plate holes.
-show the Machine Shop how things are marked!!!!
-find a well know Machine Shop with Collaborated equipment.

In so many cases this sort of thing does not go wrong, but for me it's just been one of those Mods that has taken a poor turn.

Front Damper Crank Pulley is still under the Scope, but it's another $233.00.

cossieturbo

[J!m]

I assume, by your part replacement frenzy, that the cat has been verified as not being clogged?

[cossieturbo]

CATs clean mate as far as we can tell and things are all finished and quite well. Trany came back out (Price not known yet) and the setup went to Mosler to be balanced ($45)...

this is what panned out... The UUC Flywheel was off by only a Gram, but the Pressure plate was off by 9 Grams and those 2 overtures happened to be close together when the Clutch was last in. So the 10 Grams showed up as this issue.

So the moral of the story is... Just because a Clutch kit is a Factory unit does not guaranty it was balanced. BALANCE THAT CLUTCH KIT!!! Most of the time it is fine, but once in a while... I'll have a full post and pics when I finish talking with UUC.

cossieturbo

[cali-ti]

i hope L8 is reading this!!!!