Auto-X to do list (need help!)

[DustenT]

I went to my first autocross event this weekend, as a spectator. Next time I go (next spring) will be as a driver!! It looked like so much fun. I need your help to make a list of stuff I need for next spring. I figure I should be able to buy all the parts I need before spring and be ready to go!

Current setup:
- DASC
- TT Stage 3 software with 10psi pulley
- HR Sport Springs
- Bilstein Sport shocks/struts
- Heavy 17" Mille Miglia wheels
- 225/45/17 Kumho Ecsta 712s
- LSD
- 32X Vented rotor upgrade
- OEM Rear pads, Axxis Ultimate front pads
- UUC SS brake lines
- X-Brace
- Meyle metal ball joints w/replacement control arms
- '95 m3 offset CABs
- Rogue Engineering SSK
- Ebay cheapo front strut brace (with pivots!)

Parts needed??:
- Rear Strut braces? (Do these help?) *UDM rear ~$100* Sparco front (~$100)
- Lightweight 16" wheels (Would prefer cheap as well) *Kosei K1 Racing (16.8lbs) $200/tirerack*
- Bigger front and rear sway bars (Recommendations??)
- Maybe a stiffer clutch setup, my stock clutch is starting to slip.


If anyone knows where I can get any of the above parts for cheap, PM me. Otherwise, I'm looking for everyone's opinion. Will these parts do the trick? Should I do more/less? Thanks!!

[cali-ti]

x-brace: e-bay, bimmerbum, think the price just went down a bit from what it was

front strut brace: http://www.udm-motorsport.com/otherproducts/Otherproducts.htm

lightweight wheels: kosei k1 racing (17x8.5, $200 each, 16.8 lbs according to tirerack.com)

i've been trying to figure out the sway bars myself. i swear bmpdesign.com used to have both front and rear H&R bars, but now i can only find the front. otherwise, racing dynamics i guess.

[DustenT]

x-brace: e-bay, bimmerbum, think the price just went down a bit from what it was

front strut brace: http://www.udm-motorsport.com/otherproducts/Otherproducts.htm

lightweight wheels: kosei k1 racing (17x8.5, $200 each, 16.8 lbs according to tirerack.com)

i've been trying to figure out the sway bars myself. i swear bmpdesign.com used to have both front and rear H&R bars, but now i can only find the front. otherwise, racing dynamics i guess.

Thanks Cali

I will be updating my list as the recommendations come in (in red). Hopefully we can get a "best auto-x setup" list going. Once we have a good list going, I can put together an article covering the auto-x recommendations.

[96 3 1 8 ti]

that sparco strut brace from UDM really makes a difference when combined with the x brace. It is the only one piece steel bar that is so inexpensive. Also a complete urethane or delrin bushing kit would help tighten up the suspension. This small company sells complete kits both delrin and urethane.. http://stores.ebay.com/AKG-Motorsport I would also look into getting rear shock mounts.. a cheap and functional mod.

[Montius]

The best bang for the buck right now is the Kumho V710. They are a much better tire than the old V700, and Victoracers. They are also cheaper and last longer than the hoosiers IMO.

[needle332rur]

All my friend run toyo RA1's and like them alot. Just watch out the hoosiers will heat cycle in the sun.

[DustenT]

Does anyone know off hand what the OEM 10-spoke 15" rims weight? I use my OEM wheels in the winter with my Blizzaks, but I could also use them with race tires if they are lighter than my Mille Miglias. Is this a bad idea?

[John W]

I concur with the Kuhmo V710 recommendation; I have read a couple of positive reviews about them.

Honestly, you may just want to take your car to a couple of autocrosses as-is to get used to things before investing more money. Sounds like you already have a nice set-up for Street Mod.

[DustenT]

I concur with the Kuhmo V710 recommendation; I have read a couple of positive reviews about them.

Honestly, you may just want to take your car to a couple of autocrosses as-is to get used to things before investing more money. Sounds like you already have a nice set-up for Street Mod.

I agree, a lot of people have told me that I would do pretty good with my current setup (assuming I am capable of driving!). I just want to put together a list of things so me and others interested in auto-x can use it as a reference.

[maurolin]

u'll be fine... u r not a pro driver... and more than ANYTHING... Tires and brakes are going to make the real difference.
for auto X stiffening of the chassis is NOT CRUCIAL ON A STREET CAR. Although it does help... needs to be combined with the Right susupension and bushings and alignment to be benneficial.
I am living proof of this facts, i have done and upgraded most if not all ofmy suspension parts, PLUS a Roll Bar, swaybars, bushings, X bar and f & R strut tower bars.
I am in NEED of balancin ot the car.... It became EXTREMELY tail happy as it is SOOO Stiff.
I am going with Ground Control Coilovers to lower the rear to it's max.
Good luck on your Jorney! (trust me It is!) but when you get it right... you'll have one of the best handling cars!.
Ohh one more thing... Stay with 17" wheels... i HATE the way the 18" perform...

[cali-ti]

another thing, if you do go with larger anti-sway bars and urethane bushings, you'll most likely want to strengthen your rear sway bar tabs. take a look at turnermotorsports.com (think they're under the e30). either buy them from there or just take a look at what they do and where they go (i can provide pics of them welded in if you want) and make your own. if you go all urethane engine and tranny mounts, you may also want to strengthen your diff mount (that attaches to the floorpan of the trunk). see my thread of what has occurred to z3s (including 1.9s) to see what may or may not affect us (i haven't seen anyone with a ti post about such an issue, but since our models are so close, i think it's a valid concern). urethane and delrin are not as forgiving as the stock rubber bushings. oh, on that note, if you're monkeying around with your backend, i would recommend the ireland engineering (www.bmw2002.com) urethane subframe bushings (but probably not the trailing arm bushings).

[DustenT]

How hard is it to install the urethane bushing kit? It seems like it would be a huge pain, is it?

[cali-ti]

doing a little searching, i'm guessing the 19mm or 21mm rear H&R anti-sway bar for the mz3/m coupe would work (along with the 28mm front bar for the ti). i might go that way.

i'm not sure how bad the subframe bushings are. i'm guessing the worst part is getting the old ones out. the new ones have a split design (half comes in from the top, half from the bottom). i had those put in as part of a much larger piece of work i had done on my car.

[andy]

I can tell you what I've used, it made a fun little DSP car, albiet underpowered for national competition:

Xbrace
GC Coilovers F 375 / R 550, DA Konis
GC Camber-caster plates (total of -3.5 neg F, -2.5 R)
16x8 Forgelines
245/45x16 Kumho Victoracers (run about 30 psi F 28 psi R)
Stock 25% 3.45 LSD
light e36 M3 flywheel, e36 M3 clutch pack
e30M3 offset control arm bushings, e36 m3 motor mounts
plus minor power upgrades like chip, intake, cat-back, etc

If you really want to make a better handling car, though, I'd try upping the spring rates before doing anything crazy to the swaybars. The stock front sway in my car is as thick as an aftermarket M3 unit anyway. Also, lowering the car as much as possible may look good, but doesn't make it handle. Stock with GC's recommendations for height if you go that way. I actually use a little more height in the rear which makes it oversteer less, and keeps the camber I want.

Another thing which I've recently noticed is the 4.44 is a great autocrossing gear - TONs of torque to play with, legal for SCCA SP (came stock on the automatic) and you spend most of the time over the torque peak in 2nd, with occasional dips into 3rd. More stick work, but definitely faster.

I haven't strengthened any body pieces, and nothing's broken after 156K miles, 7 races, 20+ track days and god knows how many autocrosses.

Grassroots Motorsports has had some great tire writeups lately, I'd check those out. I mostly use Hankook Ventus Z211s now (which are definitely fast tires) due to sponsorship.

[cali-ti]

the stock ti sway bar in the front doesn't mount up like the m3 bar though (not that i disagree with your assessment that he should concentrate on spring rates first). it attaches to the struts and therefore provides greater effect with a smaller bar.

do you use polyurethane bushings at all? if so, where and what effects have you noticed? looks like you've done some great work/tuning there and will be a great resource for us newbies who will be or are thinking about getting into it :)

[AlaskaBlue]

I can tell you what I've used, it made a fun little DSP car, albiet underpowered for national competition:

Xbrace
GC Coilovers F 375 / R 550, DA Konis
GC Camber-caster plates (total of -3.5 neg F, -2.5 R)
16x8 Forgelines
245/45x16 Kumho Victoracers (run about 30 psi F 28 psi R)
Stock 25% 3.45 LSD
light e36 M3 flywheel, e36 M3 clutch pack
e30M3 offset control arm bushings, e36 m3 motor mounts
plus minor power upgrades like chip, intake, cat-back, etc

If you really want to make a better handling car, though, I'd try upping the spring rates before doing anything crazy to the swaybars. The stock front sway in my car is as thick as an aftermarket M3 unit anyway. Also, lowering the car as much as possible may look good, but doesn't make it handle. Stock with GC's recommendations for height if you go that way. I actually use a little more height in the rear which makes it oversteer less, and keeps the camber I want.

Another thing which I've recently noticed is the 4.44 is a great autocrossing gear - TONs of torque to play with, legal for SCCA SP (came stock on the automatic) and you spend most of the time over the torque peak in 2nd, with occasional dips into 3rd. More stick work, but definitely faster.

I haven't strengthened any body pieces, and nothing's broken after 156K miles, 7 races, 20+ track days and god knows how many autocrosses.

Grassroots Motorsports has had some great tire writeups lately, I'd check those out. I mostly use Hankook Ventus Z211s now (which are definitely fast tires) due to sponsorship.

How low is your car? It looks about as low as mine. I don't want to have it too low. I have taken it down over a period of time and each time the handling gets tighter.

[DeadpaN]

http://www.autowerks.com/xcart/customer/home.php?cat=639
this is what i've been eyeballing, and this way, you can buy it 1 at a time for same price as UUC sways------And its H&R!!

[96 3 1 8 ti]

When i had my bushings installed i noticed a tighter feeling through turns

[andy]

the stock ti sway bar in the front doesn't mount up like the m3 bar though (not that i disagree with your assessment that he should concentrate on spring rates first). it attaches to the struts and therefore provides greater effect with a smaller bar.

do you use polyurethane bushings at all? if so, where and what effects have you noticed? looks like you've done some great work/tuning there and will be a great resource for us newbies who will be or are thinking about getting into it :)

True - Since the struts in my car are M3 struts I actually tried hooking mine up that way to see what it would do. The conversion I've seen for that seems to be accurate, approximately 3-4mm of equivalent bar going from the control arms to the struts.

Two interesting findings I had from doing this:

1. The car was better autocrossing but worse on the track. Given you'd expect more understeer from a stiffer bar on the front this was exactly the opposite of what I expected. The stiffer bar did lead to less roll, which helped transitions, which is much more important in autocross. The upshot of the excercise was that I needed more spring all around to prevent body roll.

2. many of the more-modified e36/46 bmws that race actually find that using a control-arm attachement leads to much more effective suspension travel, and do use that style of attachment.

So, you could even use an M3 bar on the front, just use the control-arm endlinks. For a more-streetable car you could do more bar and not as much springs. I personally think 375 in the front, a little more bar and 15" 60 series tires make for a fine ride, if a little bouncy.

As for the bushings, I haven't gone crazy on mine, just because I haven't had to... Just replaced with beefier e36 or M3 parts as they broke. The only thing not listed above is my tranny mounts - I'd used 2 e21 mounts for a while, but now have the UUC red mounts with enforcers. Those, the e36 M3 motor mounts, the e30m3 control arm bushings, the e30m3 rear diff mounts and such are way over-engineered for the ti anyhow and seem to be just fine. That hasn't changed much even going to an 8 point cage which has definitely stiffened the body up a bit. Really stiff springs (which i'm planning now - something like 600/775) could also make a difference, but so far so good.

That may also change somewhat after going to an I6 later, but I'll keep the board updated as to what torture tests I'm able to manufacture. :)

[cali-ti]

True - Since the struts in my car are M3 struts I actually tried hooking mine up that way to see what it would do. The conversion I've seen for that seems to be accurate, approximately 3-4mm of equivalent bar going from the control arms to the struts.

Two interesting findings I had from doing this:

1. The car was better autocrossing but worse on the track. Given you'd expect more understeer from a stiffer bar on the front this was exactly the opposite of what I expected. The stiffer bar did lead to less roll, which helped transitions, which is much more important in autocross. The upshot of the excercise was that I needed more spring all around to prevent body roll.
so the higher spring rates were IN ADDITION to the larger bars or instead of using larger bars?
2. many of the more-modified e36/46 bmws that race actually find that using a control-arm attachement leads to much more effective suspension travel, and do use that style of attachment.

So, you could even use an M3 bar on the front, just use the control-arm endlinks. For a more-streetable car you could do more bar and not as much springs. I personally think 375 in the front, a little more bar and 15" 60 series tires make for a fine ride, if a little bouncy.
that's very interesting to know! i have bav auto springs so i have NO idea what the spring rates are :( i guess i could write to them to find out. i was looking at different sway bar options. if i get the H&R 28mm front bar, i'm really wondering what rear bar would be best (i'd have to get one for the z3 or mz3 which they make in 19mm, 21mm or 25mm). i'm thinking the 25mm would just be too damn big. any thoughts on 19mm vs 21mm?
As for the bushings, I haven't gone crazy on mine, just because I haven't had to... Just replaced with beefier e36 or M3 parts as they broke. The only thing not listed above is my tranny mounts - I'd used 2 e21 mounts for a while, but now have the UUC red mounts with enforcers. Those, the e36 M3 motor mounts, the e30m3 control arm bushings, the e30m3 rear diff mounts and such are way over-engineered for the ti anyhow and seem to be just fine. That hasn't changed much even going to an 8 point cage which has definitely stiffened the body up a bit. Really stiff springs (which i'm planning now - something like 600/775) could also make a difference, but so far so good.
ok ... i've wondered what people mean by "e30m3 rear diff mountS" (emphasis on the plural S). which mounts are you referring to? the only mount i know of is the diff cover mount. otherwise, it bolts directly to the subframe. am i missing something?

i went with e30m3 control arm bushings (harder rubber but not urethane). i also have urethane subframe bushings, trailing arm bushings, and i used the mz3 diff cover (harder rubber but i don't believe it's urethane).

what did you use for rear shock mounts? metal, urethane or stiffer/reinforced rubber?
That may also change somewhat after going to an I6 later, but I'll keep the board updated as to what torture tests I'm able to manufacture. :)
it'd be great to get feedback on your mods/tuning and their effect. i look forward to your findings :)

[Panzer_M]

Bimmerbum is a source of many of my parts here in Cen. Fl
also a member of CFBMW so that's good too.

Just ordered a set of Trailing arm and subframe bushings(Urathane) from him.

and got my Xbrace a few weeks back from him, along with other parts.

[Panzer_M]

just saw the Turner MotorSports swap kit.

what's the size of the OE sway bars on the Club Sport?

[cali-ti]

turnermotorsports swap kit? what's that and where do i find it on their website?

[cali-ti]

http://www.autowerks.com/xcart/customer/home.php?cat=639
this is what i've been eyeballing, and this way, you can buy it 1 at a time for same price as UUC sways------And its H&R!!
which one(s)? i don't think the ti kit is H&R :(

found the turner swaybar kit for ti. racing dynamics 27mm three hole adjustable front bar and 22mm two hole adjustable rear bar. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=1968136012

i like the bushings you get with the H&Rs that aren't supposed to squeak ... EVER! sounds good to me (i have enough squeaks already, lol). however, turner doesn't list (nor have i found one anywhere else) a rear bar for the ti. my idea was to use a z3 or mz3 bar (i haven't tried it yet so don't blame me if you buy one and it doesn't fit :tongue:). it SHOULD work. may need to get new mounting brackets from the appropriate z3 or mz3 though (i was planning to anyway).

[cali-ti]

looking at realoem.com for 5/1995 build date, i see max sway bar sizes (which i'm assuming is what the club sport uses) as 26mm front and 16mm rear.

[bmwpwr]

Not sure where you at but these guys might be able to help. They always have the fastest autox bimmers.

If you anywhere near them I take your car there and have them give your car an agressive alignment.

http://www.bimmerhaus.com/

[maurolin]

Here's one of my favorite mods.... BELIVE ME when I tell you... this are the SH&&^T!!!! NIGHT AND DAY>>> high speed braking is STRAIGH.. and steering is more prescise.

http://www.nexternal.com/bimmerworl/?Product=516

[maurolin]

ADVISE FOR YOU 6 CYL Swappers... I had to buy a FRONT M3 Swaybar and a 318ti REAR swaybar.... the 318Ti FRONT Swaybar DID NOT FIT MY SWAP. (granted I have all M3 suspension components, (spindles, shocks etc...)

[cali-ti]

Here's one of my favorite mods.... BELIVE ME when I tell you... this are the SH&&^T!!!! NIGHT AND DAY>>> high speed braking is STRAIGH.. and steering is more prescise.

http://www.nexternal.com/bimmerworl/?Product=516
i've also heard good things about these, but haven't used them myself. is the change in camber equivalent to using offset bushings from an m3?

[cali-ti]

ADVISE FOR YOU 6 CYL Swappers... I had to buy a FRONT M3 Swaybar and a 318ti REAR swaybar.... the 318Ti FRONT Swaybar DID NOT FIT MY SWAP. (granted I have all M3 suspension components, (spindles, shocks etc...)
what rear bar did you go with? brand/size?

[andy]

I'm just using stiffer springs now. I tried going to more bar in the front without changing the springs, which wasn't as good overall. I need stiffer springs, but I've been holding off since I think the balance will be different with the new engine I'm going to do this winter.

The plural below is probably just a mistake - it's one big fatty mount. I'd found an old one that was solid rubber, but it broke. The e30M3 one I've been using hasn't ripped yet.

Rear shock mounts I'm using the GC units.

Interesting about the bar info too. I'll have to measure mine, but I'm nearly positive it's the same as the Eibach M3 unit I have hanging on my wall; of course without the adjustablility.

so the higher spring rates were IN ADDITION to the larger bars or instead of using larger bars?

that's very interesting to know! i have bav auto springs so i have NO idea what the spring rates are :( i guess i could write to them to find out. i was looking at different sway bar options. if i get the H&R 28mm front bar, i'm really wondering what rear bar would be best (i'd have to get one for the z3 or mz3 which they make in 19mm, 21mm or 25mm). i'm thinking the 25mm would just be too damn big. any thoughts on 19mm vs 21mm?

ok ... i've wondered what people mean by "e30m3 rear diff mountS" (emphasis on the plural S). which mounts are you referring to? the only mount i know of is the diff cover mount. otherwise, it bolts directly to the subframe. am i missing something?

i went with e30m3 control arm bushings (harder rubber but not urethane). i also have urethane subframe bushings, trailing arm bushings, and i used the mz3 diff cover (harder rubber but i don't believe it's urethane).

what did you use for rear shock mounts? metal, urethane or stiffer/reinforced rubber?

it'd be great to get feedback on your mods/tuning and their effect. i look forward to your findings :)

[DustenT]

I updated my current setup to reflex the large amount of $ I just dropped:

I went to my first autocross event this weekend, as a spectator. Next time I go (next spring) will be as a driver!! It looked like so much fun. I need your help to make a list of stuff I need for next spring. I figure I should be able to buy all the parts I need before spring and be ready to go!

Current setup:
- DASC
- TT Stage 3 software with 10psi pulley
- HR Sport Springs
- Bilstein Sport shocks/struts
- Heavy 17" Mille Miglia wheels
- 225/45/17 Kumho Ecsta 712s
- LSD
- 32X Vented rotor upgrade
- OEM Rear pads, Axxis Ultimate front pads
- UUC SS brake lines
- X-Brace
- Meyle metal ball joints w/replacement control arms
- '95 m3 offset CABs
- Rogue Engineering SSK
- Ebay cheapo front strut brace (with pivots!)

Parts needed??:
- Rear Strut braces? (Do these help?) *UDM rear ~$100* Sparco front (~$100)
- Lightweight 16" wheels (Would prefer cheap as well) *Kosei K1 Racing (16.8lbs) $200/tirerack*
- Bigger front and rear sway bars (Recommendations??)
- Maybe a stiffer clutch setup, my stock clutch is starting to slip.

If anyone knows where I can get any of the above parts for cheap, PM me. Otherwise, I'm looking for everyone's opinion. Will these parts do the trick? Should I do more/less? Thanks!!

We already determined that I need to go and track it a couple times before adding additional upgrades. Are there any obvious upgrades that I missed?

[Panzer_M]

Rear Strut braces < It's all about speed.com or IAAS.com makes them for the e30/36

Lightweight 16" wheels Team Dynamic Pro-2 13lbs in 15x7 and 15lb for 16x7
www.bimmerworld.com

get a non-hinged strut bar...pivots do nothing for reinforcment, best one is UUC's 2lb bar,,cheapest is Sparco's red solid bar.

[andy]

Yeah, I'd agree - I think wheels and tires are about all you need at this point to get started. The goodness of rest of the setup can change pretty dramatically based on which tires you're using. The rest of the stuff is just putting off things you'll break eventually or minor adjustments.

[J!m]

You have the x-brace, so kudos there.

Front strut brace is a good idea, I have no opinion on the hinged vs. not-hinged debate, but you should be able to pre-load it, or it won't do much good flexing to the point of loading before it starts 'bracing'...

Rear "STRUT" brace will not do any good, since we do not have struts in the rear. Reinforcing the upper shock mounts (to keep them under the car rather than in the trunk) is an excellent idea, but putting a brace across the trunk will not do any perceivable good in my opinion. The tops of the shocks do not see any side-loading as a strut does, since the suspension is fastened completely to the sub-frame.

I have seen a sub-frame stiffener which is supposed to be quite good, but I think you'd have to be thrashing pretty hard to feel the difference here.

Stiffened rear sway bar will require reinforced mounts. I would start with the ti sport bars first (front and rear), then move up to the M3 front (which requires M3 struts) / M roadster rear (which requires reinforcing the mounts).

M3 caster tops are a fairly easy mod to increase caster.

Lighter wheels with smaller diameter tires are an excellent choice for auto-x.

[Panzer_M]

then move up to the M3 front (which requires M3 struts) / M roadster rear (which requires reinforcing the mounts). < that's not going to work on the front with the use of a M44/42 engine, the weight will be off if I am thinking correct.

[J!m]

That is correct, if the M3 springs are used.

Use the M3 STRUTS with the springs of choice for the weight of the engine. The M3 struts are required with the M3 front sway, as the sway mounts to the strut on the M3, not the LCA as on the ti.