Let's build an autocross car (oong post!)

[IndianaTravis]

So here is the story. When I had my first ti, I wasn't autocrossing. I actually did my first autocross 1 week after I traded my ti for a Z3 back in 2000.

Since them, I've ran B stock in the Z3, STS in a 325Ci, and STX in a Mini Cooper S. Regionally, I was successful in each.

So now I have this '96 ti (active) and it is totally stock. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it, what class to run it in. I know my friend Brook Harmon ran his fairly successfully in DSP, before he destroyed it at Watkins Glen a couple years ago.:tears:

My options are:
G stock, STS, and DSP. I don't expect to win championships in any of these classes, but I'd like to be competitive locally.

I'm leaning heavily toward STS as it will allow me to run street tires, and save on the expense of one set of wheels. STS also will allow me to run larger wheels than the stock 15" spokes, and I can work on the suspension.

I don't have unlimited funds (or else this car would already have a six in it!) so we have to come up with reasonably affordable, bang for the buck upgrades.

I'm thinking of going with koni yellows or bilstein sports for the shocks, and probably H&R sport springs. Thoughts? I'm going to do the 'fogged' airbox mod, and eventually come up with something for an exhaust (there aren't any of those bosal systems still around, are there?)

I have no idea what swaybars to go with. I need opinions here.

I also want to do a brake upgrade, so I'm on the lookout for the '98 up vented front rotor setup, or even something more dramatic. Brook had a sweet setup off of an M Coupe on his car, but it really limited his wheel options.

Any and all advice from you folks who have been autocrossing these cars for up to 10 years :grandpa: is GREATLY appreciated!

Remember that this is my daily driver as well when you respond with your thoughts, please.......8-)

[FMD]

STS is what I run, and its pretty fun. Always a popular class, so plenty of competition. In terms of suspension mods, I run koni shocks, vogtland springs, and eibach sways. This combo in conjunction with properly adjusted tire pressures (currently azenis rt-215, rt-615 coming soon) can provide for a very balanced setup with great turn-in and mild oversteer if you desire it.

After a year of running this setup I've found that the shoulders of my front tires are getting eaten up like none-other. Could use some negative camber in the front.

Stromung is a nice choice for exhaust, received a lot of compliments from other autoxers at events before. But shocks, springs, sways, and tires should make the most impact on your autocrossing success, aggressive brake pads are also a good choice.

[needle332rur]

I used to win DSP in the local events a lot. But when i get out to SCCA events I place in the midpack. Now i have a E30 M3 i'll be racing in CSP trying to show up the Miata boys.

[robcarync]

what is STS?

i just ask because im curious about getting into some autocross...just for fun, not really competing much, mainly for my own enjoyment.

and what is DSP and the classes and such?

sorry to hijack the thread :cry:

i just got curious when i read this

[IndianaTravis]

You can find the actual rules for the classes online, but a brief rundown:

http://www.scca.com/_filelibrary/File/solocategories.pdf

The ti is in G Stock, which happens to be the class for the MINI Cooper S - not good for the ti.

Looking at your signature, your car would be a DSP or STS car. To be truly competitive in either, it is going to be hard for a ti. In DSP, the Mini is still there, and also you have the 6 cylinder three series cars (and a whole lot more).

That really leaves STS as the most logical place. STS is typically dominated nationally by civics and such, because they have a weight advantage over pretty much everything else (and they can be made to handle quite well)

The big advantage of STS to me is that you can run street tires (you can run street tires in stock or DSP, but you are sacrificing 1-2 seconds to everyone else). Plus, most of us either have or want to lower our cars, run larger wheels, and do intake and exhaust. Exactly the sort of stuff you can do in STS.

You are in Cary NC, right? Check out the Central Carolina Region SCCA page and find out when their novice school is. I've instructed at it the last few years, although I'm up in Indiana now. It is a very good introduction to autocrossing. If you get serious, I'd recommend you read Watt's "Secrets of Solo Racing" at some point. Also, check out:

http://www.tirerack.com/features/solo2/handbook.htm

For LOTS of great information.


Needle - I almost bought your car, because it is modified pretty much exactly like what I want. I happened to find this lower mileage car closer to home, though. What would you say were the strengths and weaknesses of it as you have it set up?

[AlaskaBlue]

If you want to drive suspension worked ti you can PM me so you can get an idea of what it is like. If you havent already. I live about 45 min from Ft. Wayne.

[IndianaTravis]

We should get together sometime. I grew up in Muncie, went to Ball State, and go down there every couple weekends, it seems.

Do you autocross?

Thanks for the offer, too. I'll get in touch with you before I do anything. Won't be for a couple months, probably, because we are going to have a baby in a week or two and I'm going to be home a lot!

[John W]

Just some random thoughts:

I think there are a lot of possibilities for the 318ti in STS. I don't think you're going to win Nationals in one, but you should be able to make it very competitve locally. I run mine in STX because I have 8 inch wide wheels now (can't have more than 7.5), but I will be switching to STS soon. If you set your car up for STS, it will also be very competitive with its class for BMW CCA autocrossing. (I won my class the only time I've raced with the CCA.)

I'd go for Konis over Bilsteins. I have Bilstein Sports and they work fine, but Konis have better rebound dampening and the ability to make adjustments is a plus as well. I also have H&R race springs, which I am actually pretty pleased with for autocrossing. As for anti-roll bars, I have heard that pretty much all the well known after market bars work well, but I can't confirm anything, as I still have stock bars. The factory Club Sport bars are supposed to be a good upgrade as well.

I'm currently using Hankook Venturs RS-2s (215/45/17). I like them, but I bet the new Falken Azenis 615s would be even better.

Probably a good idea to run synthetic oil. A dyno test saw a 4.5 hp improvement at 4200 rpm, which is a great place to pick up a couple of hp for these cars, especially on most autocross courses.

I've never had problem with brake fade and the vented rotor upgrade is heavier, so I've decided to put that on hold for now.

[btschafer]

I've been campaigning a Ti in SCCA GS for quite some time. Cincinnati, WOR, OVR regions SCCA; Cendiv; and National. The Ti has been very successful locally, and this past year was the first in a while that I haven't won the region (came in second to a well driven Mini-S). Nationally, it isn't possible to do much better than mid-pack in a Ti against the Cooper S. That's about where I finished last year at SCCA Nationals. :( All things equal, I'd say the Ti is the third best GS car after the Cooper S and Celica. Still, the Ti raises quite a few eyebrows when it is driven well...and that's kind of fun.

My basic setup is as follows:
A big Eibach front sway bar from a 318i, set stiff.
15x7 Kosei K-1 Racing wheels, and either Hoosier S0x or Kuhmo V710s, 225x50x(45 or 50) for dry; or full tread Kumho Ecsta V700 for wet.
Hawk HP+ front pads (dirty and noisy on the street).
EBC GreenStuff rear pads.
Zero front toe; and as much negative camber as I can wrench out of it (about -1 degree is all that's legally possible).
Stock limited slip diff.
K&N drop-in air filter.
Custom SuperTrapp cat-back exhaust (mostly to drop some weight and make happy sounds).
Custom valved Koni adjustable shocks & struts with the rears set full stiff and the fronts at about the halfway point. Fine tune to get the necessary amount of rotation.
Mobil 1 engine oil; Red Line D4 ATF in tranny, and Red Line 75W90 Gear Oil in the differential.
Shroth harness (best bang-for-the-buck autox mod ever IMO).

All the usual autox stuff: remove floor mats, spare tire, drain washer fluid, etc. in order to reduce weight and be safe.

The Ti might do well in locally in ST, but have my doubts beyond that. It doesn't stand a chance against cars like the E30 325 in DSP. It's not even close...I think the Ti is wildly misclassed in DSP.

I may run the Ti again this year in GS...or I may run a BSP C4 Corvette instead...or I may turn the Ti into a SM monster...we'll see. ;)

Bryan

[IndianaTravis]

Well this thread is taking right off!

I'm getting a ton of useful information here.

I'm already running synthetic, that was the first thing I did when I got the car.

Bryan, since you are in Cincy, do you ever get over to run in Louisville? Both the Papa Johns Stadium events and the Fort Knox events are worth travelling to. Nice long courses.

I think we should try to get a few of us together at an event down there this year. We'll convince Alaska to start autocrossing, and my brother will co-drive my car (even though it may be totally stock at the time!) and see how many tis we can get together for one autocross.

[AlaskaBlue]

We should get together sometime. I grew up in Muncie, went to Ball State, and go down there every couple weekends, it seems.

Do you autocross?

Thanks for the offer, too. I'll get in touch with you before I do anything. Won't be for a couple months, probably, because we are going to have a baby in a week or two and I'm going to be home a lot!

Haha well I am going to Ball State right now living on campus during the school year. My non-school home is in Fairmount. I have auto-x'd once. The event wasn't put on by SCCA or any other sanctioning body. It was done by a performance shop. I was going about the same as a new S2000.

[btschafer]

I haven't been to Louisville or Fort Knox, but a lot of Louisville and Lexington region folks make it to our Cincy events at KY Speedway. If you organize something, I'll do my best to be there!

[AlaskaBlue]

Well this thread is taking right off!

I'm getting a ton of useful information here.

I'm already running synthetic, that was the first thing I did when I got the car.

Bryan, since you are in Cincy, do you ever get over to run in Louisville? Both the Papa Johns Stadium events and the Fort Knox events are worth travelling to. Nice long courses.

I think we should try to get a few of us together at an event down there this year. We'll convince Alaska to start autocrossing, and my brother will co-drive my car (even though it may be totally stock at the time!) and see how many tis we can get together for one autocross.

It would be awesome to have a bunch of tis at an auto-x! Are you guys running in SCCA? I have been looking at options for a club like that, but I have been leaning heavily to NASA because they have DEs often at place I could make it to. South Haven, MI, Detroit, MI Putnam, IN, Wampum, PA, and Lexington, OH.

[IndianaTravis]

I've heard the KY speedway events are good.

Alaska, that is cool that you are at BSU. Too bad about our basketball team. Campus has changed quite a bit since I was there, but its still the same old BSU. We definitely have to get together now, I need to check out your car.

Okay, I'll be the official 318ti.org midwest autocross gathering coordinator. I'll look for the schedule for Louisville and see what we find.

Another option might be Columbus, Indiana. They run at an old airfield there, and I've had a pretty good time with them.

This is making me want to spend money on my car in a bad way.

Back on topic:tongue: - does KYB make ti fitment shocks? I really like their adjustability better than Koni (a dial on the side vs. spinning the top).

[IndianaTravis]

It would be awesome to have a bunch of tis at an auto-x! Are you guys running in SCCA? I have been looking at options for a club like that, but I have been leaning heavily to NASA because they have DEs often at place I could make it to. South Haven, MI, Detroit, MI Putnam, IN, Wampum, PA, and Lexington, OH.

I typically run the SCCA autocrosses. I haven't looked into NASA yet for DE's, because I've always figured I'd do the BMWCCA events. The BMWCCA driving schools I've been to (two of them, and didn't actually drive either time, just hung out with friends and took rides with instructors) were about as well run as I could imagine. A bit pricey, though, but NASA could be the same.

[btschafer]

Midwest autocross is easy to find. The Central division runs quite often at Peru, Indiana (Grissom AFB). Regional, divisional, and national events. Most any city of decent size in the region will have an active SCCA club: Detroit, South Bend, Chicago, Indy, Dayton, Toledo, Columbus (IN & OH), Louisville, Cincinnati, etc. Google is your friend, e.g., Cincinnati SCCA will take you right to my local site.

[robcarync]

i know im late, but wanted to thank you for all the info you gave me indiana travis...thanks a lot!

[andy]

Interesting thing about this right now, is the SCCA is moving a lot of cars from GS to HS. In HS, I think the ti could really do quite well. AFAIK, no move is afoot to apply that move to the 4 cylinder bmws, even though they'd probably be fairly classed there.

Same for SP, well setup 325 / 328s are really tough to beat, but in a ti that's not as daily-driven friendly, a pretty fast ti could be put together. Secret weapon for SP - use a 4.44 LSD from the automatic ti. Take it from me, you have amaaazing off the line and slower turn torque with this tiny tiny rear end. Slower turns are nearly at redline (where the M42's actually making power) and faster turns are done in the meat of 3rd. Unfortuntely, that's only legal in SP. And count on 5000 rpms in 5th at 80mph on the way there.

I'd say stock (with the standard 3.45 LSD) and a stiffer front bar would be the best place for a ti at this point. You can easily squeeze 225/50x15s on stock size rims (get as light a rim as you can afford) and drive it like you stole it.

[btschafer]

Given that the ti can do reasonably well in GS at the national level, it should rock in HS. Right now I don't see the ti being able to handle a well prepared and driven Cooper S. Despite that, I plan to keep trying. :) I've been tempted to petition the SCCA to move the car down a class.

[jekaio]

if you have any questions on a cage setup let me know.

i just put my 4 point in about 2 months ago.

http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8368

[AlaskaBlue]

Has anyone ever done an evolution driving school? There is on in Cincinnati, Ohio April 1-2 and one in Meriville, Indiana May 6-7. I thought it might make a nice end of my freshman year of school present to myself:biggrin:

[IndianaTravis]

I haven't, but I've known people who have. I would highly recommend it. I'd like to do one myself sometime, but my car is a ways away from being really ready to do anything like that.

[iammemares]

Hey Guys,

So I have a 96 M spec Ti that is totally stock. Still had the original control arms and bushings until 1 month ago. The M spec is standard with the 225/50/16, but I have a cheap pair of 15" take offs that I run for AutoX in AZ. Unfortunately the Azenis 215 tires are only available in 205/50s, no 225s!! So I run GS on the small azenis tires. I have raced 6 times so far. I have won all 6 events. Indeed the Ti can be very competitve if well driven. But it is a drivers car and extracting every last bit of perfromance can be challenging, especially on undersized tires.

I am not partial to the "classing" that the SCCA does. To put a 10 year old 138HP TI in the same class as a mini s with a limited slip diff is insane. Another hot prsopect in the GS class is the new mustang V6. A freakin 4.0L v6 against a Ti. I had to run against one last fall. I beat him, but it wasnt easy.

So point is, a well drven stock Ti can be VERY competitive in GS, and yes, it does raise alot of eyebrows. Spend money if you want to, but it is not needed.

Mark in Phx raising eyebrows and digging it.

[DustenT]

Hey Guys,

So I have a 96 M spec Ti that is totally stock. Still had the original control arms and bushings until 1 month ago. The M spec is standard with the 225/50/16, but I have a cheap pair of 15" take offs that I run for AutoX in AZ. Unfortunately the Azenis 215 tires are only available in 205/50s, no 225s!! So I run GS on the small azenis tires. I have raced 6 times so far. I have won all 6 events. Indeed the Ti can be very competitve if well driven. But it is a drivers car and extracting every last bit of perfromance can be challenging, especially on undersized tires.

I am not partial to the "classing" that the SCCA does. To put a 10 year old 138HP TI in the same class as a mini s with a limited slip diff is insane. Another hot prsopect in the GS class is the new mustang V6. A freakin 4.0L v6 against a Ti. I had to run against one last fall. I beat him, but it wasnt easy.

So point is, a well drven stock Ti can be VERY competitive in GS, and yes, it does raise alot of eyebrows. Spend money if you want to, but it is not needed.

Mark in Phx raising eyebrows and digging it.

Good work Mark! It's always nice to hear someone kicking ass in a Ti!

[btschafer]

Has anyone ever done an evolution driving school? There is on in Cincinnati, Ohio April 1-2 and one in Meriville, Indiana May 6-7. I thought it might make a nice end of my freshman year of school present to myself:biggrin:

If you want to learn to be a better autocrosser, take the evo schools. I'll be working the Cincinnati Evo schools April 1/2. Over the last few years I've attended several schools and there is always something to learn. They're a great experience and you'll get a _lot_ of seat time. I figure my phase 1 school got me about a year's worth of seat time in one day...with national champion instructors to go along.

[Biggins]

I've searched and read other posts and didn't want to hijack another similar thread, so I thought I'd post my questions/concerns here...

I've been getting ready for this season, but I've begun to consider buying a 318ti to prepare/run in STS. I ran my 95 318i in H-Stock last year (my first year) and finished toward the back of the pack at most events. I love the M42, but do you guys think that the M44 is better suited for autoX? I would also be doing 2-4 track days each year as well

Set up components I'd consider are:
TCKline Sport Suspension Kit with new RSMs
Eibach Sways
Team Dynamics 16" wheels
Falken RT615 225/50/16

I know a good bit about the E30 based rear, but... for those who have some experience, what are other main differences in suspension setups and tendencies between the 318ti and the regular E36 body to which I'm accustomed?

[andy]

In general, the regular e36s tend to use more spring in the rear to get the car to rotate. The semi-trailing arms allow/give more rotation when trailing throttle into a turn -- definitely good in an autocross.

I'd say the M42 / M44 comparision is a wash. The M42's got a good (aggressive) Conforti chip available and probably easier to build up once you get past SP limitations, but the M44 responds to the DASC better and is slightly more torquey. I'd personally generally choose the M42 for what you're talking about.

IAC, the 318i in HS is going to be relatively more competitive than the 318ti in GS or STS, IMHO. SCCA should really put all 318s in the same stock class.

I've searched and read other posts and didn't want to hijack another similar thread, so I thought I'd post my questions/concerns here...

I've been getting ready for this season, but I've begun to consider buying a 318ti to prepare/run in STS. I ran my 95 318i in H-Stock last year (my first year) and finished toward the back of the pack at most events. I love the M42, but do you guys think that the M44 is better suited for autoX? I would also be doing 2-4 track days each year as well

Set up components I'd consider are:
TCKline Sport Suspension Kit with new RSMs
Eibach Sways
Team Dynamics 16" wheels
Falken RT615 225/50/16

I know a good bit about the E30 based rear, but... for those who have some experience, what are other main differences in suspension setups and tendencies between the 318ti and the regular E36 body to which I'm accustomed?

[John W]

I too would give slight preference to the M42; no OBD II to worry about. An E36 318i in H-Stock is hard to knock. After all, an E36 318is won H-Stock at Nationals in 2003 (?), defeating a number of MINIs. That same car placed fourth this year or last. That's a pretty impressive showing in what has become a very competitive class. My vote would be to keep your '95 in H Stock and take it as far as the rules allow. It should be less expensive and more competitive to build your car for that class than for STS. (My 318ti is currently in STX where it is woefully outclassed. It wouldn't fare much better in STS.)

I am certainly no expert on building an autocross car and am not 100 percent familiar with the H-Stock rules (so consult the rulebook first), but fresh front end suspension components, adjustable Konis, R-compound tires, an autocross-oriented alignment, synthetic fluids throughout, etc. are all good ways to start. You can probably get some good (mixed with some bad) advice over on bimmerforums.com's autocross/track message board.

[AlaskaBlue]

I have quite a few mods on my car..coil-overs, chip, 9lb flywheel, exhaust, emissions delete, panel filter, Magnecor wires, different cabs, ac removal, cf/kevlar seats, 8.5 x 17 rims, synthetic fuilds, 330 front brakes. I think that is everything that would upclass me. What class would I be in? Would I be competitive? I also have a sponsor that would help me out with fees and etc. Should I just not worry about it?

[Biggins]

Although I'm autoXing it this year, I'm making my 318i strictly my daily driver with no intentions of autoX/track for it in the future beyond this year. I'm very aware of its capabilities in H-Stock, but I'd prefer to run a 318ti most likely in STS.

Also, I guess I didn't point out, but I usually only run SCCA events for fun and I focus my "competitive" autoXing on my local BMWCCA events. It will serve autoX/track duty for a few years before I hope to make it a NASA GTS/BMWCCA club race car.

AlaskaBlue: I think you'd be in DSP, but don't worry about anything except learning if it's your first time(s) out.

andy: I may contact you soon with some 318ti track questions if you don't mind.

[andy]

Alaska - For racing in Street Prepared the brakes are supposed to be the same dimention as stock (you can add cross-drilled or slotted rotors).. Someone could technically weenie protest them, but I personally wouldn't worry about that because the stock brakes are lighter and would probably be faster specifically for autox. Other than that it should be a fun DSP car. SCCA's rules are sometimes like that, a mod that makes you slower could technically bump you up.

I ran into that with my first autox car where my relcocated battery was the only thing that bumped my '72 2002tii into the same class as SP e36M3s... :(

What are 'different cabs' - I'm drawing a blank here :)

Biggins - sure email me anytime.

[AlaskaBlue]

Different cabs are urethane control arm bushings:smile:

Thanks for classing help!

Andy-Have you had oil consumption? What did you do about it? I am having a good bit of it now.

[andy]

Never any tremendously bad oil consumption. A heavy track day might necessitate some topping off, perhaps even using a quart. But you figure that's running between 5500-7000rpms for 2 hours solid.

[jeff]

Remember this thread? :)

Can someone confirm the part/part number that these Koni shocks are what I'm looking for which will go on my ti?

Also, can anyone recommend a good place to order these?

[btschafer]

Remember this thread? :)

Can someone confirm the part/part number that these Koni shocks are what I'm looking for which will go on my ti?

Also, can anyone recommend a good place to order these?

Got mine through Tire Rack. Custom valving and conversion to external adjustment by Koni NA, which is conveniently located (for me) near CVG.

Bryan

[pnosker]

Your Koni rears have external valving?! crazy! How many turns front and rear are you running?

[jeff]

Got mine through Tire Rack. Custom valving and conversion to external adjustment by Koni NA, which is conveniently located (for me) near CVG.

Bryan

Tirerack's price is $90 less than KONA NA, thanks Bryan!
Can you talk me through custom valving a little? Why do it?

.Jeff

[pnosker]

If it's what I think, you don't need to dismount the shocks to adjust the rears. As of now, you have to remove them in order to adjust the dampening.

[mohaughn]

Your Koni rears have external valving?! crazy! How many turns front and rear are you running?

Just saw this post. All of the TcKline Koni shocks are externally adjustable. They also have a different internal valving to allow for higher spring rates. I think the normal yellow max out around 400-500, and the TcKline singles can go up over 700.

Obviously, there are a lot of other companies in the US that can change the way the settings work, as well as the valving.

The doubles are also externally adjustable, a tab on the top turns, and there is an adjustment screw that clicks on the bottom.