epiphany swap
 

so this idea for a swap snuck up on me last night. I have a buddy who has an S52 swapped Ti... it was my idea for him to get it and it is just awful...it sounds bad is always broken and the weight defies the point of the cars size. All in all, i hate my friends s52 swapped ti, it doesn't even feel fast. What i did come to love was my Mazdaspeed 3. Spectacularly fun car, i was hooked. I recently sold that and have been jonesin to go fast. My stock Ti is fried and i got to thinking...."what if i put one of those light and peppy Mazda motors, in this tiny, poised Bimmer?"that tought led to a few hours of research and i found what appears to be the perfect candidate. I propose putting a Wankel 13BTT into my Ti. The engine weighs in around 300lbs (400 with tranny and all the shiny turbo Fixens) puts out 255HP and 232 Ft/lbs TQ stock. I figure if some people wanna Go big and dumb(LS1) it might be worth a shot to go small and brilliant. i know i will need a new tranny, diff, gauge cluster, and ECU, but do you guys think parts like the radiator would suit the new motor? I know wiring is gonna be a btch, if you have some advice, please let me know

M44 short block is 210lbs. S52 short block is around 300lbs. LS1 is close to the same weight as the S52. The weights are from bmwfans.info. Sounds like the wankel will be the same weight as the S52 swap.

Sounds like a very interesting swap that would probably require a ton of fabrication both in the engine placement in the bay and the wiring harness. Built, the 13B is a beast of a motor and if it's balanced right, what redlines these motors generally is that you can't get enough fuel to them. 10-12K redlines are not unheard of and if it's built right- you're still making substantial power up in that range. Short of its weak points (apex seals; housing seals) the Wankel is great design. These motors bare weigh closer to about 200 lbs- what adds all of the weight is the turbo system and the other goodies.

should be a fairly easy swap, the rotary is very compact.

Though, after owning a few mazdas and a BMW, I prefer the mazda.

Most Rx-7's end up with LSX's in them though.

i love the Rx-7 too, but im really attached to my Ti. I also intend on getting a Leguna Seca Blue paint Job,Sport suspension, Sport brakes, full tech upgrade and Vader seats.....make it a one-off custom that would make Audi fans say "damn"....its a shame that people throw LSX's in Rx-7s, the rotary is what gives it its soul.

Ive never actually weighed a13btt, thats just one of the numbers i saw floating around the internet, all i know is that i have lifted a 13b by myself(off the bed of a truck) while it took 3 of us to move my friends s52....never tried to move an LS1. V8s just dont do it for me....no knock against them, they just seem too easy. Rotarys on the other hand....now those are sweet. 255hp out of a 1.3l?!?!? thats a cool motor. also this motor, being more compact can keep more weight behind the front wheels which kills a bit of the understeer associated with bigger engine swaps....sometimes its not always the weight, but its position on the frame

I do agree, the wankels are cool engines. I honestly don't know much about them either but yeah, being compact will definitely help the position of the weight.

Does your friends car have a proper suspension set up for the S52 in the front?

i dont understand how a ti with a s52 is awful. i drove a M roadster with the S52 and is similar in weight and wheelbase as the ti and that thing was toooo much fun. it hauled ass too.

Wankels are heavy expensive pieces of junk. Apex seals don't like detonation when compared to traditional piston type engines. Also don't be fooled by the 1.3 designation look at the combustion cycle.

Hitler actually explains it best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxsY4...layer_embedded

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...-love-16x.aspx

Both of my TIs will absolutely destroy a Mazadaspeed 3 at the at the track (drag autocross you name it).

Lol, the Mazda Speed3 only makes 28hp & 44ft-lbs tq more than an s52 but the car weighs about 300lbs more than an s52 swapped ti. Throw an M50 manifold and a custom tune on the s52 and the power is matched. Not to mention rwd vs. fwd. The speed3 does have a 6 speed tranny, but the 5 speed is suffice for the s52.

To each his own I guess, if you want to go through the hassle of reconfiguring a fwd engine and tranny to fit into a rwd car, more power to ya:wink:

yes he does have the M3 front struts, he just bought the wrong motor honestly, high mileage sketchy and cheap. i told him it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a lower mileage engine, its always overheating, the MAF has no idea what to do, it throws a CEL every day and the aluminum flywheel makes a horrible noise everytime the gas is touched....just a terrible car though, i feel regret everyday for being a part of that project *Facepalm*

FAIL
google 13btt. I owned a Mazdaspeed 3, but thats not the motor im talking about, The Speed3 has a 2.3 MZR DISI The 3rd gen RX7 is the home of the 13btt A 1.3L Rotary, and is a rear wheel configuration....i may be a little overzealous about this project, but im not an idiot.
also my speed 3 was pushing 320whp and 350ft/lbs @18psi(Smoked my buddy's S52 swap all day).....i would totally put that in a Ti if it werent transverse

Not Mine :wink:

but then again i threw a rod after i pushed the boost to 22psi and sold it XD

Also guys, this isnt a Ti vs Mazdaspeed 3 thread.....i loved both cars and got a BMW tattoo on my chest for the Ti, so lets not make this about brand loyalty

it might be his specifically...it sucks

I did search and I found this:
http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mazdasp...tyle=101347777

Didn't know what the 13btt came out of because i don't really care about Mazda's or any FWD cars for that matter and all you mentioned in your original post was the speed 3 which is a fwd car. But hey, I'm all for thinking outside the box, I say go for it!

Really?, 320 hp & 350 ft/lbs to the front wheels @18 pounds? Certainly not on the stock turbo I would say more like 260 hp 280 ft/lbs and with that my friend I would be showing you my taillights all day long being that the MS3 weighs around 3200 lbs. To be honest I'll line up with you even if you dynoed at 320/350.

The fastest MS3 I have seen ran a 12.3 at 115 with 400 whp. My best time with my 332ti was a 12.8 @ 110 with about 35 hp less than its running now.

So back to the 13btt, I think that $ for $ an modded S52 will be a better investment. It will weigh less, be more reliable and make better power than the 13btt. After the custom mounts, wiring, and engine upgrades to make it perform better than a S52 would be a waste of $.

LS1 in a 318ti in my opinion is also a waste. The normal E36 chassis is a much better candidate to maximize the performance potential of the V8.

i already said this wasnt a thread about my MS3 vs your Ti. and i used to run mid 12's all day. i could go through every single modification on my old car to show you how i got that power out of 18psi, but that would be a waste of time, because idgaf. the car is long gone by now. This is about a ti

as for your point....thats nice, but i think its clear that i dont want an s52. I like the ingenuity of the wankel and thats that

S52 FTMFW ;)

Yawn

bahaha^ clearly you did his swap WRONG lol

I clearly didn't do much. I was just there to help out every now and then.....why don't you go waste your time talking about something else, this isn't a thread about an s52 swap now is it? Once again. Yawn

im grounded for 3 weeks and im at home, so not much else to do.

This guy has to be a troll. He will never do the 13btt swap and I doubt his story about the MS3. I'm all about having a good discussion but don't come here blowing smoke because we will call you on it.

You can't judge an S52 swapped ti on a bad example of one... the S52 in a ti is a tried and true swap. Done right, with the battery in the back and the larger diff the balance remains pretty close to stock. As stated previously, BMW did this set up in the S52 M Roadster and M Coupe, not to mention the 323ti... That said, I like seeing different set ups, so have at it!

not a troll, am actually doing this swap soon, i almost have the money for the motor now. And as for the MS3, i dont care if you dont believe me. I DONT HAVE THE CAR ANYMORE!!! that part of my life is over, next chapter Eurotary Ti-Rx. i have an art student buddy of mine coming up with a badge emblem for me

and of all things for me to troll about, why would it be about putting a rotary in my old bimmer? listen to yourself for a minute, you are just hating

Step 1: Stripping the interior and shampooing and scrubbing the carpet....this sucks in the florida Sun. I Bought a sweet lil shopvac put about 6 hours into the passenger compartment floor alone. Any advise on Upholstery guys? mine is ruined at this point. Id like to just buy new seats, but they are HARD to find

whre in So FL are you, seats arent that hard to find i found a pair of pretty decent sport black leather coupe e36 seats for 100 bucks here in miami

ive been checking out craigslist for a little while now, there are a few black seats here and there, but i need beige. Im in N.Broward btw

Id like to see the outcome of this swap, been contemplating a turbo 4 in my beater ti, just dont know what to do other than boost the M42....Sr20det sounds yummy though ;)

oh helll yea^ thats a kick ass motor. Black top!

Yea, I have the money for the motor now(payday) but I still gotta pay a mechanic to wire it up for me so I'm gonna hold off another few weeks before I order it. It still going to look like **** when the swap is done because I had to choose between motor and paint, and for now, motor matters. Motor should be in and running by sept- oct. November at the latest. Car should be totally done by 2012

Figured youd be doing all the work yourself, bummer :( Good luck with the project, im sure these guys will get off your case, eventually.

sorry for being a D*ck last night. good luck with your project and i would love to see this turn out and be a cool swap!

Sigh, im a dumbass, i totally misread the original paragraph. From the sounds of it, youre not too sure of what is actually going into the actual project, and since you said the mechanic, youre also not doing any of the work yourself. LS1, big and dumb, far from it, wankel, small and brilliant, no comment. The ti, for its size, is fairly heavy, not matter what engine you put in it. In all honesty, for its size, it should weigh in moreso around 2500 with engine installed.

Ive had 4 tis, clubsport, two sports, and an active as well as the m44b19, m42b18, m50b25, and ls1/6. The 4s are very underpowered for the chassis, they at least need 5psi to feel competent in this chassis. The m50b25 is much much more adequate for it and feels amazing when you install the correct suspension. My m50 had quite a few mods but was still no S5x but easily matched up with gt mustangs, r/t chargers, etc. with street tires, 4.10lsd, intake, exhaust, and a chip, fully equipped even.

The ls1 package isnt dumb, big, but not dumb. Its a VERY compact drivetrain, everything except the PS resevoir and pulleys sit on or rearward of the front subframe and the t56 six speed helps put weight where it belongs, at the center and low in the chassis. The driveshaft is custom, and the rest is BMW also with the 4.10lsd from the e30 m3. Easy torque and horsepower from down low all the way to the top, not to mention hp/$ ratio for mods an maintinence is good that its worth the time and effort to install one. Everyone says, OMG, ls1 so stupid in a ti, yet, in europe, guys swap in the real s5x in their tis, which is nearly the same output but with an iron I6 and 6 speed, dont see anyone crapping on them.

To each their own, hope yours turns out the way you want, id personally grab a miata engine or even an old 5.0 mustang engine with a 5 speed.

I am one of the neigh sayers when it comes to the 318ti and the LS1. I can't argue with you Tony about the power compared to the euro S5X but the power band (delivery) and the overall potential of the LSX is what concerns me. I personally wouldn't bother with putting anything more than 350 hp in the Ti chassis. I have a very strict formula in how I build my cars,
I blend factors such a performance, safety, reliability, aftermarket support and a few other things to create a overall balanced vehicle.

Notice I never said that I didn't like the overall idea of the LS1 swap
I would just rather have it in a different chassis with a huge contact patch 305s all round:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...-1920x1440.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...1/P1100192.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...1/P1110794.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...1/P1110790.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...1/P1110780.jpg
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...1/P1110786.jpg



Maybe the OP isn't a troll but I'm sure that some of his statements are exaggerated. Here is my thoughts on the aforementioned swaps.

13BTT: Heavy, expensive to maintain and modify. Power potential 350 reliable HP. I know you can show me 650 hp versions but those engines lives are measured by hours and cost $30k to build including all the aux components to support it (fuel management, turbo upgrade, etc). Apex seals exit at the first sign of detonation and not many people really know how to build these engines anymore.

SR20DET: A friend and I imported and installed these back in 2003 when I had a shop in Cali. Great little engine with awesome aftermarket support and low cost. The problem is the power potential is less than the S52 for overall cost. Dollar for dollar an S52 will cost much less and can make just as much power (if not more ) than the SR20det. Read 400 hp sr20det will cost you around 7k which you can do for around 5-6 with a S52. Stock for stock a S52 will beat the snot of a SR20det every day of the week. Blacktops with T28s @ 9 psi put down around 212 Hp and 209 ft/lbs Tq.

305 on all four corners....doesnt exactly sound like it was meant for daily driving. As far as putting wide patches down, its very easy to put a decent amount of meat under stock ti fenders, i already have them. As far as sticking a 305 under a non-ti and non-z3m, thats some hefty modifying just to get them under the rear then what about scrub raidius, offset, rim size, camber specs, etc. 305s are just overkill, even on the track for an e36.

Im not here to argue with you big D, so im going to drop the subject all together, good luck to all of you with your projects and be safe.

This is a discussion and I welcome any and all thoughts on the matter. This car will be more of time attack car. I'm adding e46 fenders at all four corners and lookng to put about 425-475 whp. I won't go any lower than 285 and I don't see how this can be an overkill. What size are you running. I have 255 all round on the Ti and it's just about perfect. Steering response is a bit slow but I have tons f grip.

205/55/16 m42
245/40/17 m50
285/30/18-245/35/18 ls

The guy that builds race engines for the shop I play at, was proposing building a LS1 made to run on E100. Compression over 14:1 and would pull something over 800 NA HP.

:) Now really how much trouble could a guy get into with that.... LOL

Dave