Turbo kit interest
 

I would like to gauge interest in an intercooled turbo kit (for low boost the intercooler could be made optional, if only running 4-5 PSI then that could cut the cost even more)

I currently build and sell a few very successful turbo kits for other cars, and with the cost of the DAS/C supercharger and the fact that it seems it's maker is not really interested in selling them, I figured maybe it is time for me to step in.

What I am proposing is a simple intercooled system that will offer a 50-75HP gain (just like the DAS/C) and will actually require less setup and install time.

It would be a completely bolt on kit that would require little or no permanent mods, would not overwork the engine and wold be as simple and clean as possible (this is the way I build things as a RULE)

Since I have a Ti, I can R&D the kit without issue and I suppose it'll work just the same for 318i and Z3 as well.

I hope the cost can be kept to $2500-ish - a price point I would personally jump at if I were on the other side of the fence.

SO let me know what you people think, if there is genuine interest I will do it.

They can be done for your price or less and the power gains are much higher since the turbo is not stealing power from the crank pulley to spin the S/C. Biggest issues are oil pan turbo oil return line (Pan needs to be removed to install), CARB certs for emission states and tuning which I can connect you with through Mid-Night (Barrie has all the tunes for the I-4 (30, 42.8 and 60 pound injectors) which were done on my car as the test platform.

If you want details I have some experience with this install and relaibility.

If I were looking for just a low boost (8psi) turbo system, would an intercooler be necessary? The DASC is non intercooled, correct?

Not necessary but it adds so much power. the charge temps off a DASC are so high. intake temps are 150 and go up to 200 at 15psi. this is why we must shoot meth on a DASC to use a chemical intercooler at higher boost psi.

At 8psi the charge temps are very high and with a turbo and intercooler you can get the charge temps down to almost ambient. cooler charge temps make big HP. Also not pulling power off your crank pulley to turn the S/C is all HP to your flywheel. It is around 30-40% loss of HP to just turn the S/c to make your boost.

I was so shocked at how much power a turbo made at the same boost psi compared to a S/C. It is a combo of intercooling and not needing to turn the S/c. I will never run a S/C again...

So not adding a $125 part for intercooling is just a total waste of power. Also a turbo has much hotter charge temps then a S/C so you really need one. It is very easy to install a intercooler and the power gain is well worth it. Remember do not buy the bar and plate intercooler (Old design) buy the delta flow which is the best you can get and way better then any bar and plate system hands down.

On a side note if you look at the Buick v6 Grand National and why that motor made so much power from the factory was because it came with a factory intercooler. Intercooling is a major power maker and should not be excluded from any set-up even at low boost. Call Nick G or ask Barrie at mid-night about this...It is something that is needed and is a cheep upgrade to make more HP.

John S

Good info, thanks John. I was more curious than anything about why the DASC didn't have an intercooler. A basic turbo setup would definitely be fun on this car, so would a swap, lol.

The system I would build would be intercooled, if a person only wanted, say - 5-PSI then the intercooler could be optional and would cut the cost even more.

The charge temps will inherently be lower on a turbo than on that type of S/C - although the charge temps at 150-200 are not crazy high, they could be lower to make more power and more importantly avoid detonation, which given the relatively low compression of the M44 is not as great of an issue and I suspect this is why the DASC is OK at those charge temps.

Sorry don't want to be a party pooper but the M44 is not low compression it is 10:1 and can not handle a lot of boost without a chemical intercooler/octane raiser or race fuel. My opinion is 10psi is the max boost without race fuel or meth injection. You are 100% correct that low intake charge temps lower the detonation/ping of the engine.

Intercooling and you might be able to squeeze 15psi out of it with a good tune

John S

I was saying relatively low compared to some of the other motors that we turbocharge.

I would not really consider boosting the M44 over 10 PSI anyway.

I would think 5-6 PSI would be more like it, maybe 8 psi max - I am not proposing a kit here that will be DYNO KING, just a reliable HP increase.

Personally I would think that a 50-60HP is a reasonable gain and $2500 is a reasonable price point that I would be interested in myself.

Keep in mind that the beauty of the turbo kit is that if a person gets the setup, installs it on the stock motor and runs at 5-6 or even 8 psi for a while, they could easily later decide to upgrade the engine internals and boost it up to 15 or even 20 PSI or more.

a new DASC is too expensive, plus you'll have to upgrade a lot of other stuff to get good HP. I'm pretty sure you'll get plenty of interest in a plug and play turbo system. plug and play is the key.. and price, but you've mentionned that already. A canadian distributor is a good idea also. paying customs sucks. you two should team up ;-) Is Yoda's kit installed yet?
traviss

Yes, I am going to make it so that the kit is totally plug and play, If one wants to go for higher boost then dyno tuning will be necessary otherwise as long as the AFR is checked with a wideband it should be fine.

I do have the ability to ship out of Canada or the US.

I've put 15psi to a completely stock M44 for 50,000 miles and retired that motor at 173,000 as a core. The core was in perfect condition per Metric Mechanic

It would be nice to see a complete plug and play turbo kit. I would like to see any ideas on the oil pan return without oil pan removal to install the bung. I'm all ears and very open to neat/new ways to do this.

Thanks, John S

Are all the M44/M42 pans aluminum? We have a solution for those.

I will probably run 8PSI or so on my car initially, I run meth injection on a lot of cars so I may decide to do that as well, allowing for more boost/safety.

You can't design one system to work on all 318s and Z3s. I think there are 6 different versions of the DASC kit to account for different brackets and fittings.

So if you only have one test car, your target audience will be limited until you do testing on the variety of different configurations that exist for the 318 and the Z3.

Both oil pans are aluminum. can you share your way to install the oil bung without removing the pan?

Most different versions of the DASC are for different belt/pulley configuration for the S/C and if the car had a air pump and where it was located if it had one. I do not know anything about the Z3 so that is new to me. Turbo builds use the stock belts and pulleys. Stock intake manifold is used.

I bet the intercooler plumbing might be different on the Z3 but I have never looked at one. I would love to check one out if someone is local, can't be too different.

Issues with tuning is the 1996 DME is the 667 and the 1997+ is the 668 so two tunes are needed unless you go piggy-back to avoid changing the DME code. The DME will adapt from 8psi all the way to the max of the injectors with a good tune (I run 60# injectors so I can boost 8psi to 25psi on my Mid-Night tune). I do know this from experience and have full OBD-II function with Lambda and good mileage.

On install only the exhaust manifold is changed then the turbo stuff is added on and routed to the TB. Exhaust is connected to the down-pipe and wastegate connected to exhaust if you choose. I blow-off open air before the MAF so I avoid all boost leaks issues associated with a closed blow-off system.

John S

Thanks for the input John. I was thinking that hardware wise the system should work on almost all 318's and probably Z3's without much (*if any) change, maybe a small change in piping.

I agree and it is so easy to cut a intercooler pipe to tweak the fit I have a real good route for the E36 if you want the pics we will be doing a install very soon on another car and can show each pipe during install. Almost all turbo builds on the I-4 failed due to tuning issues only.

It is interesting that you say tuning is the issue, I would think that a simple yet effective kit running 5-8psi could be easily fueled by RRFPR.

please excuse my "noob" question here, but why is taking off the oil pan a big deal? Or is it just the fact of having to drill a hole in to place a fitting?

Drilling the hole is the issue plus I like to weld the bung in place

A RRFPR on a Motronic 5.2 is a half ass way to tune for boost. Let me change my statement. Tuning was a major issue until one of the tuners stepped up and wrote code for turbo cars, almost all 318 turbo installs on this board failed until tuning was mastered about 2 years ago. Tuning is not a issue anymore.

My 92 Saab ran a RRFPR from the factory.

There are people who claim that the RRFPR is half assed, the fact remains that it is cost effective and works perfectly well for low boost, there are so many popular kits on the market using them, even the Paxton S/C kit for the V10 Viper uses it... - if you are going for higher boost/HP then larger injectors and ECU tuning may be better.

If the DASC runs the RRFPR then I think this is a key in making the system plug and play.

In the end, I will probably offer the setup with the end users' choice of fuel management.

Ok if you want the 318 turbo kit with the RRFPR they are on ebay. Complete kit for around $1,050. Only things I don't like on the kit is the intercooler is very small and the RRFPR for tuning. Also the oil line kit is not 100% right, the oil feed boss that fits the turbo is for a ball bearing turbo so it need to be drilled and the oil return line although very expensive AN parts will not work since the turbo oil dump is so close to the oil pan.

Still a good kit for the money.

Best of luck building your kit with the RRFPR

Reguards, John S

The limitation from what I've seen is that the BMW computer has really aggressive programming compared to a lot of other cars, the computer does not balance the timing well under boost and the rising rate fuel regulator is not fine enough control to let the computer balance the charge well.

It seems to be systemic of Bosch controlled engines..

The VIper survives because the V10 is a full fly by wire engine, and does a lot of tuning to keep itself in one piece, a side effect of that programming is the ability for the computer to adapt ot crazy fuel air ratios...

Just some random thoughts..
Dave

^^Correct

Here is the issue with the RRFPR and a turbo and why the RRFPR works "fair" with the DASC. The DASC has linear boost that comes on slow and steady as RPM's increase. With a turbo the boost hits hard and quick. The stock coded Motronic 5.2 DME does not handle this well with a RRFPR. Don't believe me give it a try and find out for yourself.

You have a link to that?

Thanks for the link, I did see that kit but was not too sure, by looking at the pics it seems like a universal piping kit - not really plug and play - also the fuel reg is not really a RRFPR.

It sounds like John has installed the kit before, any pics of it?

On the Mazda Protege, disconnecting the vacuum line from the regulator is the way to go if the owner does not want to change to an aftermarket fuel rail and regulator. People have pushed up to 16psi boost with it that way. Would this be an option with the ti?

The eBay turbo kit looks universal in more ways than just the piping and thats where the real value of having something made specific. Some of the smallest projects that keep sending you back to the hardware store can be daunting enough, but the last thing you want with a larger project like a turbo. For most people, this will be their first time and with out a good tune, its just going to blow their motor anyway.

My previous experience boosting includes blowing the motor 3 times in the same car. After learning a **** load about tuning, now its pushing 30psi boost. Obviously all the difference when the requirement for a good "plug n play" kit is advertised. I dont think the discussion should be all about the fpr, more like about what kind of managment dedication this will come with. Its going to cost way more than the $1000 price difference between the 2 kits to rebuild the motor when it pops.

I pieced together my kit with Ebay parts which is what the Ebay folks used for thier kits. I shared information with the seller for reduced pricing so he could build the kit.

I used a much bigger turbo, biggest Delta-Flow intercooler I could fit and tuning was a coded OEM DME by Barrie at Mid-Night Tuning, these are the difference from the current Ebay kit. Install is sticky'ed on top of this page. If you look pics are there and I have a full disk of them if you need more or can transfer over a file share prog if you are interested.

I'm doing a free turbo install of the $1,050 kit very soon, The complete kit is at my house now.

I ran a DASC for 50,000 miles at 15psi on a bone stock M44 that was retired in excellent condition at 173,000 miles. I had issues with the RRFPR low boost so that is why I decided to go with the correct injectors and code to have a good running car.

I currently have over 25,000 miles on my Ebay turbo install.

Intercooling pipe is easy to cut and no frame mods are needed unless you want to run the big turbo (.70/.63) I run with 3" intercooling pipe.

Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play?

Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture:

- the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange.

- there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back)

- the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller.

- the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage.

In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe.

But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all.

What I am talking about building is:

- A simple complete yet effective kit that will bolt right on without cutting or making anything.

- Has basic fuel management that will support 4-6PSI (approx)

- Also would have the ability to run more boost on a built motor with upgraded engine management

The basic idea that I have is to do something that will provide a boost in power but not so much that people will risk blowing motors, there is simply no excuse for that these days with low boost systems - if you have a wideband installed to monitor your AFR and a careful ear to monitor knock there should be no problem.

I agree that programming the ECU to run larger injectors etc. is a great way to tune the car, but for low boost simplicity rules.

I do appreciate your input here, but no, pulling the vacuum line off the reg is not going to cut it, that would actually make things worse, thngs are a little different on a N/A-T car ( I assume you are talking about the mazdaspeed protege?)

I cannot emphasize enough that I am trying to build a kit that will run low boost (READ "SAFE") and if a person so chooses, they can upgrade things to run higher boost later.

Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play? The kit I have sitting here is not the same one posted in this thread and those pictures are outdates.
Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture:

- the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange. Manifold is a 44mm v-band waste gate and the kit includes the 44mm waste gate

- there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back) Good luck with that. Another member tried a internal wastegate turbo and it would not fit. It is a very tight fit with just the small turbo. If you add the internal wastegate you have a turbo that won't fit. This is the reason the OBX manifold is a external waste gate style

- the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller. The two 180deg U-bends are cut in the center to make them both short 90deg pipes and two 90deg pipes need to be trimmed. No bead roller needed, I use hair spray on the hose connection and they are good to 25psi so far

- the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage. Not what this kit has. This kit has a OEM steer column top replacement with clip in gauge clusters that are trick, it is high quality.

In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe..I would pitch the tyrbo timer, RRFPR, Boost controller for a in cabin Gizmo), The down pipe is high quality 3" and a perfect fit so I would keep it and bush it down to your exhaust size which stock would be 2 1/4". I only use the manifole to head gasket and all other connections are machine so I use RTV Copper with no failures. I used the gaskets and they blew in 5,000 miles (Learned from that)

But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all. Wrong picture, does not represent the kit well

What I am talking about building is:

- A simple complete yet effective kit that will bolt right on without cutting or making anything. Excellent go for it

- Has basic fuel management that will support 4-6PSI (approx) My opinion is you need more boost. 4-6psi is not going to do $hit. Take it to 10psi

- Also would have the ability to run more boost on a built motor with upgraded engine management. Proven no need to upgrade motor to add boost up to 15psi. There is a stock M44 in Canada running 20psi currently. You will need engine management

The basic idea that I have is to do something that will provide a boost in power but not so much that people will risk blowing motors, there is simply no excuse for that these days with low boost systems - if you have a wideband installed to monitor your AFR and a careful ear to monitor knock there should be no problem. I and most others use the LM-2 and log our runs so we know exactly what is going on for tuning. I even log knock sensors so I can see the slightest ping, it is so sensitive it shows gear shifts on the ping sensor log

I agree that programming the ECU to run larger injectors etc. is a great way to tune the car, but for low boost simplicity rules. Well we will just have to disagree on this. You will have drivability issues (pulsing) with part throttle boost situations.

Best of luck. I'm not trying to shoot you down on everything just trying to share knowledge learned from a few years of R&D

DISA valve.

On the DASC the DISA is removed. I found out the hard way by leaving the DISA in my turbo motor and that damaged the motor.

When you are in boost and the DISA opens it slams open from the boost. It is made out of plastic and breaks. The metal rod that acuates the DISA then goes down a intake runner and in my case pinned a intake valve open and dropped a rocker off, lucky it dropped the rocker so the vavle stayed shut and pinned the rod between the seat and valve. If it had got in the cylinder it would have destroyed the piston and head.

You can solve this by putting a block off plate on the manifold. I think the plate is only the 1995 by-year (OBD-I to OBD-II swap) model. Now that you disabled the DISA you will need a simulator or modified code to remove the CEL error. There is only one simulator that was made and I thnk it is still working (IPCapitol made it, Knowledge base). Downing DASC does a half ass way to solve this by removing the DISA and leaving it plugged in, zip tied on the bottom of the intake manifold (Total Cheeze Wiz)

Just an FYI so you don't make the same mistake trying to boost a motor with DISA

I haven't looked but why could you not just permanently shut the DISA valve (leave it on the short runners) leave the actuator plugged in so the ecu is happy and be done with it.

I totally understand that you want to run lots of boost and for that you need better tuning, you say 5-6psi won't do much - it'll surely do as much as a DASC - and that is what I am looking for - I have plenty of high HP cars, I just want the Ti to be faster and I am guessing most people who drive one do too.

I would not advise doing that. The DISA does not switch from short to long intake runners. When the valve opens it allows air through all 4 runners. First, if you pin it on the short runners then you will choke the motor at higher RPM where it needs all 4 runners flowing. Second, your fuel economy will degrade due to reduced volumetric efficiency, the motor runs with all 4 runners flowing at highway speeds. Finally, the worst part is the valve is not made to handle any boost and I bet it would destructs from low boost levels leaving you with the metal actuator arm traveling down and into the cylinder where it would destroy that cylinder quick.

DISA and boost do not mix well at all and I know this due to a failure in the first 500 miles on my motor.

You can plate off the DISA with a DISA block off plate but you would then get a CEL error dut to the missing valve. There is a DYI from IPCapitol in the knowledge base showing how to make a DISA simulator or you can have the DISA operation check removed from the DME code.

John S

The DISA valve, while not common, is a fail point on these motors. The original motor on my car was replaced under warranty by BMW because it sucked in parts of the DISA valve. If you're going FI, you'll want to remove and cap that sucker off.

OK - there are two types of variable intake manifolds that I have seen:

1) Varies the length of the intake runners to improve low end torque and high end power - this uses the long (and sometimes smaller) runners to create torque at low RPM and SHORT (and larger) ones at high RPM.

2) The other type actually changes the volume of the intake plenum by opening a set of butterflies in the manifold - this type of setup does not go well with forced induction because it works based on harmonics created by the intalke pulses.

Which one is the DISA?


BTW - I could be wrong here but John's description of the DISA running both runners at high RPM sounds correct, it shuts off the short runners to create torque with the long runners, then opens the short ones at high RPM - if that is the case the valve would need to be pinned open,

- OR -

Since there is just one plate - then you could simply remove the plate and the offending metal rod, leave the actuator hooked up and then the rod would still be actuating (actuating nothing) so the ECU is happy - end of story ( I think this is basically the "cheez" solution you describe on the DASC, sometimes you need to K.I.S.S !!!)

OR you could just add the 100ohm resistor in place of the actuator as it says in the knowledge base (if this really works, long-term) - but that still requires more work since you have to hunt down a block-off plate and resistor and wire it up etc. vs. just removing the valve and rod.