318ti.org forum - My Frankenstein brake setup & SS lines

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- - My Frankenstein brake setup & SS lines (http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34131)

Frankenstein brake setup. What have I done!!!

Update at bottom:

Searched and read both stickies but could not find any specific info on this:
Finishing up my Ti-Z3 swap and am getting the brakes sorted out. I'm going to leave the rears stock as per your advice here. I bought E46 330i calipers, carriers & Zimmerman coated plain wrap rotors.
1. Is it "necessary" to install the rear SS lines as well as fronts?
2. Will E46 rear lines bolt up to the Ti calipers?
3. What's your favorite brand of SS lines?
4. This setup shouldn't interrupt the bias too much, correct?
:biggrin:Thanks in advance:biggrin:

Update: Just got off the phone with Rob at UUC who wrote a very informative thread/article on bimmerforums on BMW brake bias. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0&postcount=21 . He came across like a very intelligent guy that knew a lot about BMW brakes. He told me I'm wasting my time to get a bigger 330i front set up and that the bias will be compromised too much. A much better choice would be to keep the stock calipers & rotors but upgrade to SS lines and Hawk HP plus pads. Unfortunately I've got a heavy package from Pelican with E46 parts on it's way. Arhggggghhh!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCV7 (Post 307041)

A much better choice would be to keep the stock calipers & rotors but upgrade to SS lines and Hawk HP plus pads. Unfortunately I've got a huge & heavy package on it's way from Pelican on it's way to my front door. Arhggggghhh!!!!!

I agree, except if you have solid rotors, change them over to vented.

Great thread on here about different setups and their brake bias.
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32902

Thread where e36_323ti put his calculations to the test and built a custom front and rear bbk.
http://www.318ti.org/forum/showthrea...321#post299321

I am still a believer in larger rotors. Yes you need to be aware of bias, the easiest trick is run stock pads for teh E46 in front and a carbotech or similar high performance pad in the rear.

I've almost always found when tuning a new race car its a lot harder to keep from locking the rear than the front with stock application brakes. (Not including some cars like 911 and M3 with already spectacular brakes.) Miata's for instance can run way bigger rotors in the front than stock because they over built the rear brakes from the factory, most Miata in Spec Miata run aggressive race pads front and hp street pads rear because the rear locks up easier and you cant change the parts in that race class.

+1 on switching to the vented rotor from the 98 model though its a good stock change with little fuss.

Since I have a E46 it is interesting to sit and look a the TI next to the E46 comparing the brakes... there is a major difference.

Dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCV7 (Post 307041)

He told me I'm wasting my time to get a bigger 330i front set up and that the bias will be compromised too much. A much better choice would be to keep the stock calipers & rotors but upgrade to SS lines and Hawk HP plus pads. Unfortunately I've got a heavy package from Pelican with E46 parts on it's way. Arhggggghhh!!!!!

Speaking from first hand experience, I would have to agree with this analysis. I changed out my stock front setup with an E36 M3 setup and while I think it possibly stops a little better with the larger front setup, it doesn't appear that I'm even getting sufficient brake pressure to the rear brakes to have them factor into the equation. The bias appears waaay off (lesson learned on my part, from those that tried to warn me... looking at you, Steven! :redface: ) After almost 1,500 mi. on the new brakes, the rear rotors haven't even broken in yet and still have the Blanchard grinding marks in them. That, and they are starting to discolor... :frown: I'm going to try and bleed the rear brakes one more time to see if there is possibly any air still trapped in there (doubtful, I used a power bleeder and ran a lot of fluid through it). Unless there is an easy/practical way to install a bias adjuster (that actually increases rear bias instead of decreasing it), I'm looking at converting it back in the near future.

Question for those that know: Did the 98+ vented setup use the same spindle/caliper as the earlier setups? (could I just get the appropriate vented rotors and reuse all of the rest of the stock setup from a '95?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoner (Post 307052)

Question for those that know: Did the 98+ vented setup use the same spindle/caliper as the earlier setups? (could I just get the appropriate vented rotors and reuse all of the rest of the stock setup from a '95?)

you would need the calipers and caliper brackets, spindles are the same

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCV7 (Post 307041)

Update at bottom:

Searched and read both stickies but could not find any specific info on this:
Finishing up my Ti-Z3 swap and am getting the brakes sorted out. I'm going to leave the rears stock as per your advice here. I bought E46 330i calipers, carriers & Zimmerman coated plain wrap rotors. SS lines are my concern here. I did find a thread here from '99 stating the e46 fronts lines are longer that our Ti's.
1. Do I need to buy a set of f & r lines for both a ti and a 330i? I can't seem to find any vendors that sells just f or r's, only full sets.
2. Is it "necessary" to install the rear SS lines as well considering the rears have the OEM lines now. Will I feel a spongy pedal if I don't?
3. Will E46 rear lines bolt up to the Ti calipers?
4. What's your favorite brand of SS lines? Has anyone used Troutman or StopTech?
5. This setup shouldn't interrupt the bias too much, correct?
:biggrin:Thanks in advance:biggrin:

Update: Just got off the phone with Rob at UUC. He wrote a very informative thread/article on bimmerforums on BMW brake bias. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0&postcount=21 . He came across like a very intelligent guy that knew a lot about BMW brakes. He told me I'm wasting my time to get a bigger 330i front set up and that the bias will be compromised too much. A much better choice would be to keep the stock calipers & rotors but upgrade to SS lines and Hawk HP plus pads. Unfortunately I've got a heavy package from Pelican with E46 parts on it's way. Arhggggghhh!!!!!

I agree with UUC/Rob. 5% change is too much on the ti'. By studying the numbers given in my "Why size matters"-thread one see that the change of bias is almost like my BBK with AP Racing up front and stock ti' rear. I found it too much front biased.

However, a possible option is to do as I did before I built my rear BBK: change the stock rear ti' calipers to the e34 m5 3.6 rear caliper. Then close to stock bias using e46 330i rotors up front is maintained.

The bias numbers are (not accounting for pad size, assuming same pad material front and rear):
Bias stock ti' : 66.59%
Bias ti' with 330i up front, stock ti' rear: 71.62%
Bias ti' with 330i up front, stock ti' rear disc w. e34 m5 caliper : 66.89%

Rear brake caliper from the e34 m5 3.6 (up til 10/89) is made for 10mm solid disc, has 38mm piston diameter and bolts straight onto the ti carrier. Even the old brake lines can be re-used. No clearance issues. Note that this calipers also are to be found on several other e34 models.

Weight of the e46 330i parts is another issue, but I leave it for here...

Upgrade or stay stock?????

Very intriguing idea using the M5 e34 rear calipers. Has anyone used this setup? I just received the front e46 rotors, calipers, carriers and pads. Wow, is this setup going to add some weight! Wondering if it's even going to be worth it. Is the performance worth changing over to the front e46 330i and M5 rear caliper only setup? Or should I stay with stock ti all around and just upgrade to better pads and SS lines? Thanks in advance.

Hey, e36 323ti:
According to this graph on e34 brake fitment, the e34 M5 3.6 has 300X20 rear rotors. You mentioned they use 300X10 rotors, same as our ti's. Does that make a difference? Can they still be used? Thanks
http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Upgrade/Brakes.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCV7 (Post 307401)

Wow, is this setup going to add some weight! Wondering if it's even going to be worth it. Is the performance worth changing over to the front e46 330i and M5 rear caliper only setup? Or should I stay with stock ti all around and just upgrade to better pads and SS lines? Thanks in advance.

Yes, substantial weight. When I installed my M3 setup, it was much heavier than what I pulled off and my hwy. mileage dropped a solid 5-6 MPG. Not sure if that was because of the increased rotating mass, the fact that I have a bad front bearing, or a combination of both, but it was noticeable.

I'm going to bump this thread, because I have done some reading and fitment research... If my research is correct then the following is true;

US spec e34 M5's and 540i's (and E32 740 and 750) all use the 300x20mm vented rotors, which require a different caliper and carrier. The needed carrier will not bolt directly to the ti's. It's close, but the bolt holes for the carrier don't line up (Thanks to BlackBmws (Rich) for confirming that).

The e34 525i, 530i, 535i sedans however use the 300x10mm rotor, and the caliper has the 38mm piston. This will be a direct bolt on to the ti's carrier bracket. Again, the e34 carrier bracket won't bolt up, but it is not needed, just the caliper.

For those using the e46 brake upgrade in the front, the e34 caliper in the rear should negate the brake bias and bring it back to near the original ratio.

Might still make sense to use the 5 series master cylinder just to keep the piston ratio the same...

Just thinking... :)

Dave

For a DD with an occasional spirited driving, are SS lines and Hawk HP pads are ok?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shellback (Post 338323)

For a DD with an occasional spirited driving, are SS lines and Hawk HP pads are ok?

Not sure about Hawk HP's, but be careful because some high performance or racing compound pads don't actually work until they reach a certain temperature.

I'd say go with Hawk HPS. I have them on my 08 GTI and love them. Noticeable improvement over stock and some people complain about noise with the HP+ for daily driving (MKV GTI). I don't have any experience with them on the BMW though because mine is just a beater daily I bought as a second car for my time in Italy

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