318ti.org forum

Go Back   318ti.org forum > Technical, Maintenance and Modifications > Induction

Notices

Induction Superchargers, NO2 and turbos.

.
» Recent Threads
1999 M-Sport For Sale
12-31-2023 05:10 PM
Last post by Coop540iT
03-23-2024 06:39 PM
1 Replies, 98,692 Views
Once again 318ti owner...
03-20-2024 12:39 PM
Last post by two30grain
03-22-2024 02:04 PM
1 Replies, 61,545 Views
What brakes do I...
03-20-2024 03:27 PM
Last post by huirtera
03-20-2024 03:27 PM
0 Replies, 58,926 Views
Reply Share/Bookmark
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-23-2011, 04:09 AM   #31
signature sound
Senior Member
 
signature sound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Elkhart, IN
Posts: 128
iTrader: (0)
Default

On the Mazda Protege, disconnecting the vacuum line from the regulator is the way to go if the owner does not want to change to an aftermarket fuel rail and regulator. People have pushed up to 16psi boost with it that way. Would this be an option with the ti?

The eBay turbo kit looks universal in more ways than just the piping and thats where the real value of having something made specific. Some of the smallest projects that keep sending you back to the hardware store can be daunting enough, but the last thing you want with a larger project like a turbo. For most people, this will be their first time and with out a good tune, its just going to blow their motor anyway.

My previous experience boosting includes blowing the motor 3 times in the same car. After learning a **** load about tuning, now its pushing 30psi boost. Obviously all the difference when the requirement for a good "plug n play" kit is advertised. I dont think the discussion should be all about the fpr, more like about what kind of managment dedication this will come with. Its going to cost way more than the $1000 price difference between the 2 kits to rebuild the motor when it pops.
signature sound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 05:06 AM   #32
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus View Post
Thanks for the link, I did see that kit but was not too sure, by looking at the pics it seems like a universal piping kit - not really plug and play - also the fuel reg is not really a RRFPR.

It sounds like John has installed the kit before, any pics of it?
I pieced together my kit with Ebay parts which is what the Ebay folks used for thier kits. I shared information with the seller for reduced pricing so he could build the kit.

I used a much bigger turbo, biggest Delta-Flow intercooler I could fit and tuning was a coded OEM DME by Barrie at Mid-Night Tuning, these are the difference from the current Ebay kit. Install is sticky'ed on top of this page. If you look pics are there and I have a full disk of them if you need more or can transfer over a file share prog if you are interested.

I'm doing a free turbo install of the $1,050 kit very soon, The complete kit is at my house now.

I ran a DASC for 50,000 miles at 15psi on a bone stock M44 that was retired in excellent condition at 173,000 miles. I had issues with the RRFPR low boost so that is why I decided to go with the correct injectors and code to have a good running car.

I currently have over 25,000 miles on my Ebay turbo install.

Intercooling pipe is easy to cut and no frame mods are needed unless you want to run the big turbo (.70/.63) I run with 3" intercooling pipe.
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 09:01 AM   #33
angus
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VAN
Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxJohnBoyxxx View Post
I pieced together my kit with Ebay parts which is what the Ebay folks used for thier kits. I shared information with the seller for reduced pricing so he could build the kit.

I used a much bigger turbo, biggest Delta-Flow intercooler I could fit and tuning was a coded OEM DME by Barrie at Mid-Night Tuning, these are the difference from the current Ebay kit. Install is sticky'ed on top of this page. If you look pics are there and I have a full disk of them if you need more or can transfer over a file share prog if you are interested.

I'm doing a free turbo install of the $1,050 kit very soon, The complete kit is at my house now.

I ran a DASC for 50,000 miles at 15psi on a bone stock M44 that was retired in excellent condition at 173,000 miles. I had issues with the RRFPR low boost so that is why I decided to go with the correct injectors and code to have a good running car.

I currently have over 25,000 miles on my Ebay turbo install.

Intercooling pipe is easy to cut and no frame mods are needed unless you want to run the big turbo (.70/.63) I run with 3" intercooling pipe.
Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play?

Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture:

- the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange.

- there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back)

- the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller.

- the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage.

In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe.

But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all.

What I am talking about building is:

- A simple complete yet effective kit that will bolt right on without cutting or making anything.

- Has basic fuel management that will support 4-6PSI (approx)

- Also would have the ability to run more boost on a built motor with upgraded engine management

The basic idea that I have is to do something that will provide a boost in power but not so much that people will risk blowing motors, there is simply no excuse for that these days with low boost systems - if you have a wideband installed to monitor your AFR and a careful ear to monitor knock there should be no problem.

I agree that programming the ECU to run larger injectors etc. is a great way to tune the car, but for low boost simplicity rules.

Last edited by angus; 07-23-2011 at 09:10 AM.
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 09:15 AM   #34
angus
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VAN
Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by signature sound View Post
On the Mazda Protege, disconnecting the vacuum line from the regulator is the way to go if the owner does not want to change to an aftermarket fuel rail and regulator. People have pushed up to 16psi boost with it that way. Would this be an option with the ti?

The eBay turbo kit looks universal in more ways than just the piping and thats where the real value of having something made specific. Some of the smallest projects that keep sending you back to the hardware store can be daunting enough, but the last thing you want with a larger project like a turbo. For most people, this will be their first time and with out a good tune, its just going to blow their motor anyway.

My previous experience boosting includes blowing the motor 3 times in the same car. After learning a **** load about tuning, now its pushing 30psi boost. Obviously all the difference when the requirement for a good "plug n play" kit is advertised. I dont think the discussion should be all about the fpr, more like about what kind of managment dedication this will come with. Its going to cost way more than the $1000 price difference between the 2 kits to rebuild the motor when it pops.
I do appreciate your input here, but no, pulling the vacuum line off the reg is not going to cut it, that would actually make things worse, thngs are a little different on a N/A-T car ( I assume you are talking about the mazdaspeed protege?)

I cannot emphasize enough that I am trying to build a kit that will run low boost (READ "SAFE") and if a person so chooses, they can upgrade things to run higher boost later.
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 11:24 AM   #35
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play? The kit I have sitting here is not the same one posted in this thread and those pictures are outdates.
Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture:

- the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange. Manifold is a 44mm v-band waste gate and the kit includes the 44mm waste gate

- there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back) Good luck with that. Another member tried a internal wastegate turbo and it would not fit. It is a very tight fit with just the small turbo. If you add the internal wastegate you have a turbo that won't fit. This is the reason the OBX manifold is a external waste gate style

- the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller. The two 180deg U-bends are cut in the center to make them both short 90deg pipes and two 90deg pipes need to be trimmed. No bead roller needed, I use hair spray on the hose connection and they are good to 25psi so far

- the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage. Not what this kit has. This kit has a OEM steer column top replacement with clip in gauge clusters that are trick, it is high quality.

In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe..I would pitch the tyrbo timer, RRFPR, Boost controller for a in cabin Gizmo), The down pipe is high quality 3" and a perfect fit so I would keep it and bush it down to your exhaust size which stock would be 2 1/4". I only use the manifole to head gasket and all other connections are machine so I use RTV Copper with no failures. I used the gaskets and they blew in 5,000 miles (Learned from that)

But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all. Wrong picture, does not represent the kit well

What I am talking about building is:

- A simple complete yet effective kit that will bolt right on without cutting or making anything. Excellent go for it

- Has basic fuel management that will support 4-6PSI (approx) My opinion is you need more boost. 4-6psi is not going to do $hit. Take it to 10psi

- Also would have the ability to run more boost on a built motor with upgraded engine management. Proven no need to upgrade motor to add boost up to 15psi. There is a stock M44 in Canada running 20psi currently. You will need engine management

The basic idea that I have is to do something that will provide a boost in power but not so much that people will risk blowing motors, there is simply no excuse for that these days with low boost systems - if you have a wideband installed to monitor your AFR and a careful ear to monitor knock there should be no problem. I and most others use the LM-2 and log our runs so we know exactly what is going on for tuning. I even log knock sensors so I can see the slightest ping, it is so sensitive it shows gear shifts on the ping sensor log

I agree that programming the ECU to run larger injectors etc. is a great way to tune the car, but for low boost simplicity rules. Well we will just have to disagree on this. You will have drivability issues (pulsing) with part throttle boost situations.

Best of luck. I'm not trying to shoot you down on everything just trying to share knowledge learned from a few years of R&D

Last edited by xxxJohnBoyxxx; 07-23-2011 at 11:26 AM.
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 11:43 AM   #36
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

DISA valve.

On the DASC the DISA is removed. I found out the hard way by leaving the DISA in my turbo motor and that damaged the motor.

When you are in boost and the DISA opens it slams open from the boost. It is made out of plastic and breaks. The metal rod that acuates the DISA then goes down a intake runner and in my case pinned a intake valve open and dropped a rocker off, lucky it dropped the rocker so the vavle stayed shut and pinned the rod between the seat and valve. If it had got in the cylinder it would have destroyed the piston and head.

You can solve this by putting a block off plate on the manifold. I think the plate is only the 1995 by-year (OBD-I to OBD-II swap) model. Now that you disabled the DISA you will need a simulator or modified code to remove the CEL error. There is only one simulator that was made and I thnk it is still working (IPCapitol made it, Knowledge base). Downing DASC does a half ass way to solve this by removing the DISA and leaving it plugged in, zip tied on the bottom of the intake manifold (Total Cheeze Wiz)

Just an FYI so you don't make the same mistake trying to boost a motor with DISA
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 03:43 PM   #37
angus
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VAN
Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxJohnBoyxxx View Post
DISA valve.

On the DASC the DISA is removed. I found out the hard way by leaving the DISA in my turbo motor and that damaged the motor.

When you are in boost and the DISA opens it slams open from the boost. It is made out of plastic and breaks. The metal rod that acuates the DISA then goes down a intake runner and in my case pinned a intake valve open and dropped a rocker off, lucky it dropped the rocker so the vavle stayed shut and pinned the rod between the seat and valve. If it had got in the cylinder it would have destroyed the piston and head.

You can solve this by putting a block off plate on the manifold. I think the plate is only the 1995 by-year (OBD-I to OBD-II swap) model. Now that you disabled the DISA you will need a simulator or modified code to remove the CEL error. There is only one simulator that was made and I thnk it is still working (IPCapitol made it, Knowledge base). Downing DASC does a half ass way to solve this by removing the DISA and leaving it plugged in, zip tied on the bottom of the intake manifold (Total Cheeze Wiz)

Just an FYI so you don't make the same mistake trying to boost a motor with DISA
I haven't looked but why could you not just permanently shut the DISA valve (leave it on the short runners) leave the actuator plugged in so the ecu is happy and be done with it.

I totally understand that you want to run lots of boost and for that you need better tuning, you say 5-6psi won't do much - it'll surely do as much as a DASC - and that is what I am looking for - I have plenty of high HP cars, I just want the Ti to be faster and I am guessing most people who drive one do too.
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 02:56 AM   #38
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus View Post
I haven't looked but why could you not just permanently shut the DISA valve (leave it on the short runners) leave the actuator plugged in so the ecu is happy and be done with it.

I totally understand that you want to run lots of boost and for that you need better tuning, you say 5-6psi won't do much - it'll surely do as much as a DASC - and that is what I am looking for - I have plenty of high HP cars, I just want the Ti to be faster and I am guessing most people who drive one do too.
I would not advise doing that. The DISA does not switch from short to long intake runners. When the valve opens it allows air through all 4 runners. First, if you pin it on the short runners then you will choke the motor at higher RPM where it needs all 4 runners flowing. Second, your fuel economy will degrade due to reduced volumetric efficiency, the motor runs with all 4 runners flowing at highway speeds. Finally, the worst part is the valve is not made to handle any boost and I bet it would destructs from low boost levels leaving you with the metal actuator arm traveling down and into the cylinder where it would destroy that cylinder quick.

DISA and boost do not mix well at all and I know this due to a failure in the first 500 miles on my motor.

You can plate off the DISA with a DISA block off plate but you would then get a CEL error dut to the missing valve. There is a DYI from IPCapitol in the knowledge base showing how to make a DISA simulator or you can have the DISA operation check removed from the DME code.

John S
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 03:07 AM   #39
cooljess76
NOBODY F's with the Jesus
 
cooljess76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ventura California
Posts: 7,824
iTrader: (6)
Default

The DISA valve, while not common, is a fail point on these motors. The original motor on my car was replaced under warranty by BMW because it sucked in parts of the DISA valve. If you're going FI, you'll want to remove and cap that sucker off.
cooljess76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 11:47 AM   #40
angus
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VAN
Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)
Default

OK - there are two types of variable intake manifolds that I have seen:

1) Varies the length of the intake runners to improve low end torque and high end power - this uses the long (and sometimes smaller) runners to create torque at low RPM and SHORT (and larger) ones at high RPM.

2) The other type actually changes the volume of the intake plenum by opening a set of butterflies in the manifold - this type of setup does not go well with forced induction because it works based on harmonics created by the intalke pulses.

Which one is the DISA?


BTW - I could be wrong here but John's description of the DISA running both runners at high RPM sounds correct, it shuts off the short runners to create torque with the long runners, then opens the short ones at high RPM - if that is the case the valve would need to be pinned open,

- OR -

Since there is just one plate - then you could simply remove the plate and the offending metal rod, leave the actuator hooked up and then the rod would still be actuating (actuating nothing) so the ECU is happy - end of story ( I think this is basically the "cheez" solution you describe on the DASC, sometimes you need to K.I.S.S !!!)

OR you could just add the 100ohm resistor in place of the actuator as it says in the knowledge base (if this really works, long-term) - but that still requires more work since you have to hunt down a block-off plate and resistor and wire it up etc. vs. just removing the valve and rod.

Last edited by angus; 07-25-2011 at 12:10 PM.
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #41
Monolith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 106
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus View Post
OR you could just add the 100ohm resistor in place of the actuator as it says in the knowledge base (if this really works, long-term) - but that still requires more work since you have to hunt down a block-off plate and resistor and wire it up etc. vs. just removing the valve and rod.
I have the DISA simulator installed to remove the 175 code. No problems with it so far.
__________________
Mods: DASC, NickG Stage II DME software, 30# injectors, RRFPR removed, DISA Simulator, Secondary Air Pump relocated, bypass cooling hose removed, Fogged airbox, Bosch silver sparkplugs (F6DSR), Magnecore sparkplug wires (KV85), SeattleCircuit mpg adjuster circuit; Textar CeramicFusion brake pads; S/E/M auto trans selector with Euro software TCU; Royal Purple trans (MaxATF) & diff fluids; Koni FSD (F&R); Rogue RSMs; Strong Strut; Butt Strut; Bridgestone Fuzion ZR1 225/50/16 on Style 42's; hardtop; Footwell lighting; Interior lighting On/Off switchable; Euro intermittent wipers; Padded LeatherZ arm rests; Sisa Design Cabrio Wind Deflector;
Monolith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2011, 07:54 PM   #42
angus
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VAN
Posts: 71
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxJohnBoyxxx View Post
Are you saying that the current "$1050" kit is an updated version that actually is plug and play? The kit I have sitting here is not the same one posted in this thread and those pictures are outdates.
Maybe the sellers pics are outdated? I caught many inconsistencies in the one picture:

- the manifold has what appears to be a v-band W/G flange yet the 'gate in the pic has tial 38 style 2 bolt flange. Manifold is a 44mm v-band waste gate and the kit includes the 44mm waste gate

- there is no W/G dump pictured (personally I would go for an internally gated turbo or if it were external I would plumb it back) Good luck with that. Another member tried a internal wastegate turbo and it would not fit. It is a very tight fit with just the small turbo. If you add the internal wastegate you have a turbo that won't fit. This is the reason the OBX manifold is a external waste gate style

- the piping is all just universal bends, this is OK for some - as you stated it is easy to cut, although not everyone wants to do this and even less have a bead roller. The two 180deg U-bends are cut in the center to make them both short 90deg pipes and two 90deg pipes need to be trimmed. No bead roller needed, I use hair spray on the hose connection and they are good to 25psi so far

- the fuel reg and gauges are just plain garbage. Not what this kit has. This kit has a OEM steer column top replacement with clip in gauge clusters that are trick, it is high quality.

In all reality, I would probably pitch the gauges, turbo timer, fuel reg, boost controller and most of the lines and fittings, not only that but I would never use the gaskets supplied - I would probably be better off to just buy the manifold and then build my own piping and downpipe..I would pitch the tyrbo timer, RRFPR, Boost controller for a in cabin Gizmo), The down pipe is high quality 3" and a perfect fit so I would keep it and bush it down to your exhaust size which stock would be 2 1/4". I only use the manifole to head gasket and all other connections are machine so I use RTV Copper with no failures. I used the gaskets and they blew in 5,000 miles (Learned from that)

But for a person who is interested in a kit they can bolt on in their driveway in a few hours this kit does not look good at all. Wrong picture, does not represent the kit well
OK - so I messaged the seller and he tells me that the kit is exactly as pictured in the auction - which is no good - I guess back to the drawing board.
angus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2011, 05:41 PM   #43
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus View Post
OK - there are two types of variable intake manifolds that I have seen:

1) Varies the length of the intake runners to improve low end torque and high end power - this uses the long (and sometimes smaller) runners to create torque at low RPM and SHORT (and larger) ones at high RPM.

2) The other type actually changes the volume of the intake plenum by opening a set of butterflies in the manifold - this type of setup does not go well with forced induction because it works based on harmonics created by the intalke pulses.

Which one is the DISA?


BTW - I could be wrong here but John's description of the DISA running both runners at high RPM sounds correct, it shuts off the short runners to create torque with the long runners, then opens the short ones at high RPM - if that is the case the valve would need to be pinned open,

- OR -

Since there is just one plate - then you could simply remove the plate and the offending metal rod, leave the actuator hooked up and then the rod would still be actuating (actuating nothing) so the ECU is happy - end of story ( I think this is basically the "cheez" solution you describe on the DASC, sometimes you need to K.I.S.S !!!)

OR you could just add the 100ohm resistor in place of the actuator as it says in the knowledge base (if this really works, long-term) - but that still requires more work since you have to hunt down a block-off plate and resistor and wire it up etc. vs. just removing the valve and rod.

For price I would remove the DISA guts and use it as a block off plate and simulator in one. No harm in doing that.
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2011, 05:51 PM   #44
xxxJohnBoyxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gulfport, Florida
Posts: 3,208
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by angus View Post
OK - so I messaged the seller and he tells me that the kit is exactly as pictured in the auction - which is no good - I guess back to the drawing board.
This guy is not very good at communication. I have his kit right here and it has a HKS SSV blow-off w/mounting pipe and a 44mm tial(copy) wastegate. This is fastwayracer on ebay and the kit is complete excluding what I mentioned about the turbo feed boss being a BB type and the turbo oil dump being some expensive AN parts that won't fit. I should lay out the kit and take a picture for this goof but why do his work for him. I have spoken to fastwayracer on the phone, now that is interesting he hardly speaks any english

Luis (Yoda - free turbo install) and I went through the whole kit 2 weeks ago and it was all there and matching parts that all fit together. Lius can back me up on this so you know I'm not giving false information
xxxJohnBoyxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2011, 07:27 PM   #45
Demus
Member
 
Demus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC & FL
Posts: 59
iTrader: (2)
Default

I dont know about the Ti but when I need a kit for my nsx I will definetly come to Angus.
Demus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any interest in a Group Buy? gimp Suspension 328 10-23-2015 07:19 PM
Interest in a New England Meet? kelly.st New England - US 11 06-26-2011 08:18 PM
Gauging interest MEET!? ti3 New England - US 0 08-05-2010 04:51 AM
Two others turbo-manifolds founded for M42/M44 and another turbo kit... 355hp nuvolarossa Induction 23 10-22-2009 09:50 PM
Gauging interest in my sub box losichu Interior and ICE 6 09-06-2007 03:05 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:19 PM.


.
Powered by site supporters
vBulletin Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, 318ti.org
© vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2
[page compression: 137.33 k/160.78 k (14.58%)]

318ti.org does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information or products discussed.