332ti at Autobahn in August

[slowoldpoop]

We went back to run the full course again, this time with slicks. I FINALLY got to run against some comparably-equipped M3s, and did OK.

This video is a little shaky, mainly because it was my first time putting a video together. I hope to do better next time.
http://youtu.be/GlXO3SMbsks

The video gets better at the end, where you can see a Porsche Carrera blow its motor right in front of me. Hoo, boy! $20,000 going up in smoke!

The TC Kline suspension works OK in the high-speed stuff, but not so good in the low-speed corners. What do I need now? Rear camber? Sway bars?

[1996 328ti]

Audio is killing me.
I've never been there but it looks like you are turning in too early everywhere. ???

Originally Posted by slowoldpoop

The TC Kline suspension works OK in the high-speed stuff, but not so good in the low-speed corners. What do I need now? Rear camber? Sway bars?

How so?

Don't take this the wrong way, but smoothness goes a long way.
I have stock sport sways and could probably go a little stiffer up front.

How many events have you done? Have you done schools?

[slowoldpoop]

Well, like you said, you've never been there.

[1996 328ti]

Now I remember your last video when you where selling the car.
I don't know what you have against lessons or couching?

[slowoldpoop]

I have no objections to coaching--in fact, I often ask an instructor for a ride-along to get pointers. You're never so good or so fast that you don't need help. I've been at this for 10 years and won a NASA regional championship, so I think I have some basic idea of what I'm doing out there.

What I was hoping for here was some advice on what to do to the car next. There are so many things I can do to the car to improve it--sway bars, rear camber, strut braces, poly bushings, etc.

What it has now is an X-brace, TC Kline double-adjustable suspension set for full stiff, and Ground Control camber plates set for 3.5 degrees negative camber. Where do I go from here?

[1996 328ti]

Originally Posted by slowoldpoop

I have no objections to coaching--in fact, I often ask an instructor for a ride-along to get pointers. You're never so good or so fast that you don't need help. I've been at this for 10 years and won a NASA regional championship, so I think I have some basic idea of what I'm doing out there.

What I was hoping for here was some advice on what to do to the car next. There are so many things I can do to the car to improve it--sway bars, rear camber, strut braces, poly bushings, etc.

What it has now is an X-brace, TC Kline double-adjustable suspension set for full stiff, and Ground Control camber plates set for 3.5 degrees negative camber. Where do I go from here?

I know you don't want to hear this but I'll say it anyway.
If your line is bad, it doesn't matter. You are turning in early. I don't care that I have never been there. Tracks don't start curbing after the apex.

I now remember the last video you posted and I had commented you where driving from cone to cone. You told me it was windy and that was the line. ??

On a positive note.
I have H&R Race Springs, Koni SA, Polyutherance subframe bushings, polyurethane RTABs. Solid M3 LCABs. 235/40/17 Nittos at the moment.
Stock sport sways F/R.

My only complaint on my car is not enough hp to pull myself out of corners. I can only carry so much speed into the corners. Once you have a slip going, there isn't much more to be had unless stickier tires.

Since every car and driver is different I find myself short shifting to a higher gear earlier than waiting to run out of revs in a corner.

On this one downhill right hander normally you don't brake.
I find give a light tap, settle the nose and turn in is smoother.

My exit speed is usually the same either way but I have better control with the light tap and am able to focus on track out better.

Tires, suspension just mask mistakes.
Where to go? To be blunt, concentrate on your line.

Post your video on bf.c in the track section.
I have a lot of respect for them there.
Sure I may be all wrong.

[slowoldpoop]

I appreciate your comments, but unless you've driven the track, you don't know all the circumstances. Let's analyze the video. Note that turns listed may not correspond exactly to a track map.

Turn 1: Late turn in to convert the double-apex turn into a big sweeper and get back inside for the entry to turn 2

Turn 3: A little early apex because I was off line after passing the red car. Not a problem here, because the turn opens.

Turn 4: That's the correct line to hit corner out and still get back left for the next one.

Turn 5: Very late apex.

Turns 6 and 7: Flat through here.

Turn 8: (Note that I am eating up the black M3) Maybe a little early turn in here, but that's how the car seems to like that turn. Any later, and it drifts out too far to the left.

Turn 9: A tight 90-deg right hander that leads to a tight 90 left hander. One of the toughest corners on the track. I choose to stay way inside on the right to get a run out of 10. There may be a better way through here, but I haven't found it, even after following dozens of other cars. Cars that get through here faster than me are on pretty much the same line, but they seem to be glued to the track and can maintain a higher cornering speed.

Turn 11: Another tight right-left. Again, I choose to stay inside so I can get a run out of 12 and pass the red Corvette. There may be a faster way through--some guys jump the inside curb at 11. And, as above, faster cars take the same line but are glued to the track.

Turns 13, 14, 15, 16--that may look like an early apex into 13, but it's taken from the far left side of the track and cut in to hug the inside curbing so as to get a perfect shot at the 14 left, a drift out to the green curbs at 15 and yet be able to get back left for the entry to 16--all in 4th gear. This is one of those turn combinations where the initial entry sets up later turns. Note that I am starting to close up on the red Carrera.

Turn 17: Late apex to touch the curbing at corner out. Still catching the Carrera.

Turn 18: This one gives me a lot of trouble. I've tried it every which way, including early apexes with a drift out and a late apex with a sharp turn in. Somewhere in the middle seems to work best because it's just a short run to 19, which is the more important corner.

Turns 19, 20: Here, you want to make a big sweeper out of these turns so you hit the straight at the maximum corner out speed. So the turn in is such that I can go flat from turn in to corner out in one big continous turn.

(skip the Viper and its off after its early apex at 19.)

Turn 21: Late turn in at the end of the straight (note that the Carrera takes an early apex) If the Carrera hadn't blown its engine right then, I would have passed him.

Video can be deceiving. In some cases, I go almost to the grass before turning in, but the camera can't see that. In other cases, the turn in and line is chosen to maintain momentum and carry more speed through multiple corners.

Yes, one particular turn might be taken faster with a late apex, but it messes up subsequent turns. There really is a method to my madness.

I'd like to figure out why some cars stick like glue to the track in those slower corners and make the same mods to my car.

And as for "smoothness"--most of the jerkiness is because of the cheap camera I'm using.

If this was a real race, I'd be using 3rd gear a lot more and revving the snot out of it in the short bits. But I pretty much run most of the track in 4th gear.

[slowoldpoop]

Here's hoping the video explanation above put the "early apex" discussion to bed.

Now I'd like to return to the mainstream of tonight's symposium, mainly: What suspension mods should I make next?

Like I said, I have TC Kline, camber plates, X brace, and Khumo V700 tires. What should I do next?
Rear camber?
Sway bars?
Poly bushings?
Strut braces?

What worked best for you on your 318ti?

[1996 328ti]

Originally Posted by slowoldpoop

The TC Kline suspension works OK in the high-speed stuff, but not so good in the low-speed corners. What do I need now? Rear camber? Sway bars?

I don't understand.
Low speed corners as in tight or decreasing radius turns?
What is not good? The rear slipping out? Understeer?

[slowoldpoop]

It just doesn't stick as well as other cars. I don't know why. I was hopig somebody would tell me what to do next

[spidertri]

What are your spring rates?

Have the subframe and trailing arm bushings ever been changed?

[slow_ti]

Bushings make the BIGGEST difference. Trust me

[slowoldpoop]

The spring rates are whatever TC Kline recommended.

Bushings are good, eh? Thanks.

[spidertri]

Well, a lot of Z3 guys run higher rear spring rates (600 or 700) and no rear sway bar. You also want a bigger bar up front to help keep the mcstruts from losing camber in the corners.

It also seems TC Kline has recommended many different rates over the years so it would be helpful if you knew what they were.

[slowoldpoop]

OK, poly bushings and a front sway bar. Sounds like a good project.

What do you think of the rear camber adjusters? http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp?HC1=...1996&HCM=318ti

Bavarian has them on sale for $242.

Right now, I'm limited to 225x17 Khumo V700 square shoulder tires, cuz anything bigger hits the rear fender. We may roll the fender this winter, but will increasing the negative camber make any difference in allowable tire size? And is it effective for handling?

I wish I could point to some detriment in handling, but the car turns in nicely, corners flat, and is neutral. It just doesn't stick to the track like other M3s. Is that because of its E30 rear suspension?