318ti.org forum

Go Back   318ti.org forum > Technical, Maintenance and Modifications > Differentials

Notices

Differentials Limit Slip, gear ratio discussions.

.
» Recent Threads
1999 M-Sport For Sale
12-31-2023 05:10 PM
Last post by Coop540iT
03-23-2024 06:39 PM
1 Replies, 98,692 Views
Once again 318ti owner...
03-20-2024 12:39 PM
Last post by two30grain
03-22-2024 02:04 PM
1 Replies, 61,545 Views
What brakes do I...
03-20-2024 03:27 PM
Last post by huirtera
03-20-2024 03:27 PM
0 Replies, 58,926 Views
Reply Share/Bookmark
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2011, 09:18 AM   #16
BimmerBum
Senior Member
 
BimmerBum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fl
Posts: 1,353
Vehicles
iTrader: (9)
Default

I thought I would chime in here as I own a ti, a Z3, an E46, and an E21... I have owned several others over the years and I am pretty familiar with the suspension set ups in these cars.

The E21/E30 and Z3/ti all share the same basic design. Jess has made the point that many (all) of the parts for the ti/z3 rear suspension are not exactly the same as the e30 but the reality is that they are not that different... the differences required slight tweaks, not a complete suspension redesign and retool.

From a driver's (or my) perspective what the E30 style rear suspension gets you is a lot of fun. A 325ti can be a bit of a handful and it is a car that demands your attention to drive fast well... an E36 325i can be driven fast less dramatically and also feels much more stable and composed at high speed. Some might find the E36 325i less connected... more generic... to me it is just the nature of the 2 different suspension set ups... and the E36 multi link set up is just as 'disconnected' as the E30 set up is 'old and antiquated'. There really is no right or wrong, each set up offers 2 different feels and whatever feels the best to you is the best for you.

Sub-frame failure... I am very familiar with this as I just repaired the cracked floor in my E46. I am not sure why it is called 'sub-frame failure' as it is never the sub frame itself that fails but the floor above it. Standard E36's had the problem, Z3's had the problem, and BMW settled a class action suit for the E46 models with the problem. The problem is not limited to multi-link or semi trailing arm suspensions but it is fortunate that the ti seemed to evade this issue. Having just totally rebuilt the rear suspension in my E46 I feel it is a much more tuneable set up than that on the E30/ti. On the multi-link rear suspension, all you need to add is a set of camber adjusting arms and you have control over everything you need back there. On the ti you have to do some welding (or trust offset bushings to stay put) to gain control over rear suspension geometry. While the multi link set up is more complex and has more parts I don't feel like there is that much of a weight difference. The sub frame itself is small and more like a cage around the differential, not something that goes from one side of the car to the other. The arms the springs sit on are aluminum, and the trailing arms are hollow steel.

E46 multi link:



Owning a Z3 Coupe for the past 10 years I can confirm that there is a lot about that car that was not well thought out and seems very much slapped together... The moonroof has no actual cover so you just sit in there and bake in the sun... The fan for the climate control system cannot actually be turned off, it still blows even set at 0... M cars have no spare, but they do have an extra (and pointless) muffler as well as an (also nearly pointless) m-Mobility Kit (BMWs version of fix-a-flat and an air pump)... The battery in the MZ3s was in the center of the trunk because they had nowhere else to put it... in all the other Z3's but the 1.9 the battery is in the right rear of the trunk. Z3 windows do not go all the way down... So to think that BMW's reason for using the E30/ti rear suspension was to save money is not that much of a stretch for me. That said, the car is great fun and at this point I consider it an old friend that I would not change at all.

After all that there seems to be only one real way to settle this... an equally equipped ti, vs and equally equipped standard E36... but in the end it will prove nothing, drive what you like and don't worry about the rest!
__________________



SUPPORT 318ti.org! CLICK THE LINK ABOVE!
Hosting a forum like this is not free. 318ti.org is one of the best BMW forums on the web because it is member supported, not vendor supported. The cost to become a Supporter is a nominal $10.00... A YEAR! DO IT! NOW!

www.BimmerBum.com ALL NEW!
318ti Specific Parts For Sale
www.facebook.com/BimmerBum

BMWCCA #132203
95 318ti Club Sport
98 318ti Active S50 Swap

BimmerBum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 09:35 AM   #17
dahamler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 770
iTrader: (11)
Default

I think the more forgiving refers to the snap oversteer that owners of the E30 type rear suspension can deliver. I really wish some of you could drive my racecar to really know what this means. During my first track event as a novice I drove my 332ti with instructors who drove Spec Miatas and one that owned at 911 RS America. After my first session the spec Miata instructor was very impressed with my driving but wanted to show me some different lines around the track so we switched positions. Well after a few laps he was instructing less and less and started to race a few of the solo guys doing some shakedowns in our run group. We were giving a point by from every solo driver except the HMS Z3 racecar and a 500hp STI with 275 slicks all round. During this frightening session my instructor spun the car and was black flagged, he suggested that I take a different instructor for my second session who was more familiar with "this type of handling characteristic". Long story short even the 911 driver said that the rear of my car was its weak point, he was frustrated during corner exits but loved the car overall.

The 318ti was not built to appeal to enthusiasts, the brakes, engine and steering were lacking and the tire sizes left much to be desired. The 318ti was BMWs attempt in capturing market share in a particular segment, plan and simple.
__________________

Last edited by dahamler; 01-08-2011 at 09:37 AM.
dahamler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 03:10 PM   #18
bullmand
Senior Member
 
bullmand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Halethorpe, MD
Posts: 1,028
iTrader: (0)
Default

I'm not going to pretend that I'm any kind of hot-shoe race car driver, but my experiences in E30s at HPDEs have been exactly the opposite of yours, dahamler. The instructors I've had have almost all commented on how much they like the SpecE30 suspension set up (H&R race springs, Bilstein Sports, and swaybars) and in particular the fact that it's easy to get the car to rotate. Clearly there is going to be a power and balance difference between an E30 325 and 332ti, but I would suggest that the experience you had was the instructor's fault and not due to some inherent weakness in the design of the ti rear suspension. Besides, everybody know that Porsche drivers are asses anyway

It seems to me that this whole discussion is a little pointless anyway. The thing is what it is and it works just fine. There's always going to be something newer that's claimed to be better but that doesn't change the fact that there is plenty of fun and drivers' education to be had in the E30/ti rear suspension design. I suppose if I had hours and hours of track time under my belt and was regularly not winning races because of my antiquated rear end I might feel differently, but at this point I honestly don't care. My ti gets me to work and back everyday, and the E30s get me around the track, often at speeds beyond my honest comfort zone, without me hurting it or me yet and all of that's plenty enough for me.
__________________
'98 Alaska Blue Sport
www.baltimorecitypipeband.com
bullmand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 03:18 PM   #19
Bluebimma
Senior Member
 
Bluebimma's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 43609
Posts: 3,425
iTrader: (8)
Default

I'm pretty sure the op took whatever information from this thread and moved on, no sense in arguing. Besides, we all know, the ti isn't the only car with this rear setup, the merkur xr4ti is exactly like it and it was a race car back in it's day with a turbocharged 4 cyl. There are many others, just move on.

Op, if you want the e36 rear multilink, buy a non-ti e36, the floor pan isn't made for it though modifying is possible, but why?
__________________
1995 Hellrot Clubsport 318ti -Gone
1996 Schwartz II Sport 357ti - 5.7L V8 LS1/6
1997 Moregrun Metallic 318ti - Gone

1998 Schwartz II sport 318ti - M50TUB25/5
Bluebimma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 03:30 PM   #20
1996 328ti
Senior Member
 
1996 328ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 9,356
Vehicles
iTrader: (1)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamler View Post
The 318ti was not built to appeal to enthusiasts, the brakes, engine and steering were lacking and the tire sizes left much to be desired. The 318ti was BMWs attempt in capturing market share in a particular segment, plan and simple.
It was an entry level car that did well at doing that.

My last track event I was in 'the zone'. Magical.
I only get into that zone once every few years.
My car handled great. I seemed to be ahead of the car all weekend.
I felt slow but my times were the fastest I ever had, even with someone in the right seat.

My instructor had a lot of fun with me, as I did with him.
Probably because we were more on the race line than the traditional school line. His only comment about suspension was to change my sway bars.
I need to ask him what characteristic he was looking to dial out.
He told me but now I forget.
__________________
...steven
BMW CCA #146825
1996 BMW 328ti • 2003 MINI Cooper S • 2016 M235i
www.bmwcca.org
1996 328ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 04:40 PM   #21
dahamler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 770
iTrader: (11)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullmand View Post
I'm not going to pretend that I'm any kind of hot-shoe race car driver, but my experiences in E30s at HPDEs have been exactly the opposite of yours, dahamler. The instructors I've had have almost all commented on how much they like the SpecE30 suspension set up (H&R race springs, Bilstein Sports, and swaybars) and in particular the fact that it's easy to get the car to rotate. Clearly there is going to be a power and balance difference between an E30 325 and 332ti, but I would suggest that the experience you had was the instructor's fault and not due to some inherent weakness in the design of the ti rear suspension. Besides, everybody know that Porsche drivers are asses anyway

It seems to me that this whole discussion is a little pointless anyway. The thing is what it is and it works just fine. There's always going to be something newer that's claimed to be better but that doesn't change the fact that there is plenty of fun and drivers' education to be had in the E30/ti rear suspension design. I suppose if I had hours and hours of track time under my belt and was regularly not winning races because of my antiquated rear end I might feel differently, but at this point I honestly don't care. My ti gets me to work and back everyday, and the E30s get me around the track, often at speeds beyond my honest comfort zone, without me hurting it or me yet and all of that's plenty enough for me.
I'm certainly no hot shoe myself and you're right the suspension does work great but it does have some traits that render it less desirable than others.
I don't understand why people think that the 318ti was developed to be a serious performer. BMW built the E30 M3 to go racing and win, which they did. Since then they have altered their design to improve improve their product. The reason why I love the TI is because its an underdog and not expected to perform.

All else being equal a E36 will be faster around a track than a 318ti or E30 because the rear suspension is better.This has been proven time and time again.
__________________
dahamler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 05:16 PM   #22
Bluebimma
Senior Member
 
Bluebimma's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 43609
Posts: 3,425
iTrader: (8)
Default

At the end of the day, it's personal preference because they both do the same thing. The multilink will provide better transitions but you can fine tune a semi to be just as close in performing.
__________________
1995 Hellrot Clubsport 318ti -Gone
1996 Schwartz II Sport 357ti - 5.7L V8 LS1/6
1997 Moregrun Metallic 318ti - Gone

1998 Schwartz II sport 318ti - M50TUB25/5
Bluebimma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 05:21 PM   #23
cooljess76
NOBODY F's with the Jesus
 
cooljess76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ventura California
Posts: 7,824
iTrader: (6)
Default

It doesn't matter why BMW chose to use this suspension setup, I'm perfectly happy with it and I just don't think it's fair to call it inferior. Sure there's things they could've done better. 17" wheels, vented brakes and a M series powerplant from the factory would've been nice, but then everyone would have a ti in their garage lol. In all fairness to the OP's question, yeah you can be the first to retrofit a multi-link suspension setup onto the ti. I suppose you can also weld the hatch shut and add a trunk lid if that's what you're into, but I'd just buy a 318i or 318is instead of wasting your time on an inferior car built with leftover parts and compromised safety. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed these things, must of been trying to save money because the windows don't roll all the way down on their other cars It's not like their headliners sag, windows fall off track or plastic cooling system parts break after 150k miles, that would be insane
cooljess76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 06:03 PM   #24
Junk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 178
iTrader: (0)
Default

Whoa, sorry if anyone thought I was bashing the semi-trailing arms. I do believe it was cost/space cutting feature, and that BMW is capable of being cheap. I was just calling the suspension antiquated.. well because it is, and I called it "inferior", being sarcastic since that's what every M3 owner is obligated to say so they can feel better about their "REAL" M car which has the not-real M motor. Plus a REAL M car has dual climate control and faux wood panelling so it's waaaay better.

Good info dahamler, it seems to me all the people that really had a problem with the trailing arm suspension had 6's or LS1 swaps, large tires and exiting turns under power. E30 owners don't seem to be bothered.. or maybe they just living in the past

dahamler: what suspension mods do you have? Just curious after reading your track experience. (I've no track experience so I'm just bench modding I suppose.. )

The trailing arms must flex noticeably or BMW wouldn't have gone through the trouble of re-inforcing them, even though the reinforcements aren't that beefy..perhaps the trailing arms are at a bad angle if moderately lowered? (you can change static alignment, but unless you move the subframe up, the angle of the rear arms will be different in regards to the anti-squat or whatever) Powering out of a corner, the rear corner is compressed near max and if the wheel center goes from below the trailing arm bolts to being above the trailing arm bolts, idk if that would cause a flip-flop in anti-squat to squat.. knowwhaddamean? naah.. I'm overthinking it..

cooljess: I have to disagree, if the regular e36 suspension (z-axle is it?) could fit, then why did BMW NOT use it? The TI was their cheap model.. it must b cheaper or they did want the extra space or something. Unless you are telling me it was made to be sportier.. the lopsided steering wheel bmw put in tells me otherwise.. i also don't mind that it is "inferior" because I haven't yet pushed it that far, but I do mind that the alignment is off and I can't get traction and my tires wear out twice as fast and it does seem to twitch at speed.. Also the original poster had drift in their name so I am guessing they aren't doing it for looks, although watching video of a Mcoupe, looks like it drifts just fine.

Good info bluebimma and bimmerbum! I agree, nothing's ultimately better or worse (except leaf springs becaue they suck so bad) but it's all compromises. Unfortunately the BMW crowd seems to have more snobs (not here, but I been visitng bimmerforums) and it's funny when a bunch of grown men (presumably) are bashing some kid for cutting his muffler off as a test. Oh yes the resale will be RUINED now.. .Let that be a lesson to you guys with the LS1 swaps... you're car won't be 100% original anymore and if it wasn't engineered by bmw, then it is an inferior part. Because BMW would have made it right... right? my old lopsided steering wheel tells me NO
Junk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2011, 08:15 PM   #25
familytruckster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MD/PA/DC
Posts: 1,629
Vehicles
iTrader: (3)
Default

You know it's an antique when American car companies use it on their SUVs. Also that it works well, is tough, and inexpensive.

Car design is nothing but compromise. Seems to me that BMW needed a inexpensive small "hot hatch" for their market. There are design goals set, and a budget... And then there was the ti.

Enthusiasts like a car, for whatever reason. Any suspension can be made to do extraordinary things. I run circles around people at the auto-x with a 4500lb station wagon, that sits at the normal ride height and has dinky little tires-and I'm by no means an excellent driver. (or look at nascar, they used a 50's chevy truck suspension)


After all of that.. Measure the centerline of the wheel to the rear of the subframe on both, see what fits. I doubt the E36 sub will fit in the space with that the ti has.
__________________
No more ti.
familytruckster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 12:11 AM   #26
FMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 181
iTrader: (0)
Default

it's cheaper to produce, i'd like a multilink rear but nothing you can do about that. easiest way to upgrade is to buy a new car.
FMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 06:47 AM   #27
anthony318ti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fiji
Posts: 169
Vehicles
iTrader: (0)
Default

[QUOTE=coolBe proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti[/QUOTE]

like this : ) do you guys know of any other Ti members in the south pacific that can help me? Out of the 4 318ti's there are only two operational ones mine and another help!
__________________

"If the world turns it's back on you, grab it by the hips and pound the crap out of it"
anthony318ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 06:52 AM   #28
anthony318ti
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Fiji
Posts: 169
Vehicles
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooljess76 View Post
It doesn't matter why BMW chose to use this suspension setup, I'm perfectly happy with it and I just don't think it's fair to call it inferior. Sure there's things they could've done better. 17" wheels, vented brakes and a M series powerplant from the factory would've been nice, but then everyone would have a ti in their garage lol. In all fairness to the OP's question, yeah you can be the first to retrofit a multi-link suspension setup onto the ti. I suppose you can also weld the hatch shut and add a trunk lid if that's what you're into, but I'd just buy a 318i or 318is instead of wasting your time on an inferior car built with leftover parts and compromised safety. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed these things, must of been trying to save money because the windows don't roll all the way down on their other cars It's not like their headliners sag, windows fall off track or plastic cooling system parts break after 150k miles, that would be insane
Iv had a few cars with good and ****ty suspension but nothing iv driven beats the ti on our roads. I leave the V6 and V8 behind on the sharp turns and rough roads at top speed. I love the ti only reason why i havent sold it yet waiting for a diff.
__________________

"If the world turns it's back on you, grab it by the hips and pound the crap out of it"
anthony318ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 06:28 PM   #29
kendogg
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 10
iTrader: (0)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooljess76 View Post
Personally I don't think our semi trailing arm suspension is inferior to the standard e36's multi-link suspension setup. There's a reason BMW used this setup on the Z3's and Mcoupes and I refuse to believe it was because of space constrictions or costs. People seem to think that BMW used leftover parts from the e30 to build our cars and that's complete BS. If they did, then how come none of the e30 rear suspension parts are compatible with our cars? Part numbers and geometries are different. Fact is, the compacts, Z3's and M coupes were introduced LOOOOOONG after the e36 was in production, 5 years to be exact. This means that BMW WENT BACK to the semi-trailing arm design for these models and if you look at these less common models, they all share one characteristic, they're enthusiast cars! They didn't produce nearly as many of them. The e36 coupes, sedans and verts were designed to be econimical and comfortable vehicles for the average driver. Our cars as well as the Z3's and M coupes offer a completely different rawness that you won't feel in a standard e36. Just because multi-link suspension is newer in design, doesn't necessarily mean it's better. One thing our cars don't suffer from is torn subframes(a common flaw on e36 coupes sedans and verts). So don't listen to those idiots on bf.c, they have no idea what they're talking about. They all drive 20 year old 3 series' that were mass produced and come a dime a dozen. Any chance they get to feel like their run of the mill 325i is somehow superior to our little cars is a big achievement to them. Be proud of the ti and accept it for what it is, a TRUE enthusiast car. Or just go pick up an e36 coupe or sedan, there's thousands of them and they're much cheaper and easier to find than a nice ti


Old thread, but n engineer friend who interned in Munich at BMW M Gmbh. They totalled a couple M Roadsters, noting that they were simple 'twitchy'. Thats due directly to the training arm suspension. Great cars, until they snap back... It works great - but multi-link IS better for handling. It's easier on tires, the toe curves are exponentially better, and it's more forgiving to the driver.
kendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 04:08 PM   #30
zboot
Senior Member
 
zboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,224
iTrader: (6)
Default

Even older thread but back in 2007, I swapped an e30 rear suspension into my ti. I was too poor and needed a working car too soon to do it right. A few years later, I'd swap back to ti parts when I did my m52 swap. The e30 parts are not strictly compatible, which is why I swapped the entire rear suspension, trailing arms, axles, etc.

Last edited by zboot; 02-19-2017 at 04:11 PM.
zboot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
F30 Edmunds articls claims no more Straight 6 in regular 3's! ChItalian1027 Lounge 9 04-19-2010 03:55 AM
What happens if my car is filled up with regular gas? Kennection Maintenance 22 02-10-2010 07:14 AM
Rear subframe assembly swap-difficulty factor sreavis Differentials 4 01-25-2008 03:38 AM
M-tec softer than regular 40mm lowering springs? nillevang Suspension 12 08-20-2007 06:08 PM
need a subframe. Panzer_M US and North America 8 04-22-2007 06:31 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:16 PM.


.
Powered by site supporters
vBulletin Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2024, 318ti.org
© vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2
[page compression: 141.07 k/164.96 k (14.48%)]

318ti.org does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information or products discussed.