feeler: anyone interested in gaining more power?

[tengohambre]

I was just wondering if anyone with an m42 engine would be interested in a variable valve system, which would adjust both the valve timing and the valve length, which would be like having both dual vanos and valvetronic on our engine, without the parisitic loss of the hydraulic run vanos (because this is electronically controlled).

This means that the engine will have a much flatter torque curve (ie you'll have much higher low end torque and there are no sweet spots where you hit your power) and will have hp constantly increasing past the redline. I'm guessing that you will also have a gain in both max hp and max torque because of a couple reasons: the throttle body is removed because the valves can control air flow into the engine, allowing better air flow; the hydraulic lifters are replaced with lighter ones (that adjust to control the valves), which means the engine can rev higher; and our single vanos unit will be removed because it becomes obsolete.

I'm not selling the system. I'm just really interested in it. I was talking to the guy who invented it (a engineering graduate student in Greece) and he said that it'll cost about $3000 (his exact words were the price of individual throttle bodies for the honda b16 engine), if 50 people would be interested.

There are no dyno charts or anything like that, but maybe we can convince him to make a system for our engine and test it out if there is enough people interested in it. If you want to take a look at his site, go here: http://www.pattakon.com/
You want to look at the roller system.

Benefits of the system:
-Increased max hp
-Increased max torque
-Increased torque throughout the powerband (expecially at the low end)
-Increased hp throughout the powerband (because of the increase in torque)
-Lower fuel consumption (because the engine runs more efficiently. Cams are only designed to be optimal at a specific rpm, but this system adjusts for rpms)

Drawbacks:
-You won't be able to use force induction (the system cannot adjust for varying air pressures, although he may be able to design a system if this is a big concern)
-Not smog legal (even though it's supposed to reduce your emissions 40x)
-Your car will take longer to slow down if you currently use the engine brake (ie you don't press the clutch when braking) This is because when you break, the throttle body is closed, creating a vaccuum, which helps to slow the engine, which in turn slows the car while it is still connected to the transmission. With the system, the throttle body is gone and the valves will still be open.

[nuvolarossa]

This work with M44's?

[DustenT]

I have a couple concerns:

"I'm guessing that you will also have a gain in both max hp and max torque because of a couple reasons"
--Seems like a lot of $$ to spend on speculation.

"the price of individual throttle bodies for the honda b16 engine"
--I've never seen a b16 Honda with individual throttle bodies.

"if 50 people would be interested"
--He needs $150,000 up front?

"There are no dyno charts or anything like that"
--For that price you can buy a DASC and be guaranteed a 40% gain.

From 318ti.net - "removes the restriction of the throttle body and does away with the vanos unit"
--Neither the m42 or the m44 uses Vanos.

I'm sure everyone appreciates you posting this, but it's going to be a tough sell without some hard data. I don't think I will ever replace a factory BMW part with an untested "engineering graduate student's" experiment.

[nick_hegel]

I'm a bit skeptical of someone trying to sell stuff when they have only 1 post on the website

[tengohambre]

The system isn't designed yet to fit in our engines, so I am trying to see if there would be interest in this system, so he would have a reason to make one. Nothing is being sold yet, just seeing who is interested. If there is enough interest in the system, then my plan is to get one from him, install it on my car, do some dyno and smog tests then post the results for you guys to see and then you can decide if you want to buy it.

I have an m42 engine, so that is why I am interested in a system for the m42. For him to design a system for the m44, it would be a little different than the m42 because of the larger displacement, so there would also need to be sufficient support for the m44 for him to make a system for it, but he states that his system can be applied to most cars.

About VANOS. I am pretty sure that we have a vanos unit that works on the intake valves, but we do not have the double vanos that works on both the intake and exhaust valves. If you go to the DASC website, it even states that the vanos unit is removed when installing the DASC, so I'm guessing that that's a good sign that we do have vanos.

Note: Although there is a good chance that you're going to increase in max hp and max torque, you probably won't gain nearly as much max torque as the DASC system. What you will gain is much higher torque in the lower ends and and a boost in the higher end, without sacrificing torque in the midranges. This means that the torque will be relatively constant throught the powerband, while if you look at the dynos for the DASC system, it is peaky. Also, your drop off point for power is going to be significantly higher, meaning that if your engine can handle the higher revs, then you will make higher max hp (quite possibly on par or greater than the dasc). If there is enough support for the system, then hopefully I can run a comparison test between the two systems.

[DustenT]

""Note: Although there is a good chance that you're going to increase in max hp and max torque, you probably won't gain nearly as much max torque as the DASC system. What you will gain is much higher torque in the lower ends and and a boost in the higher end, without sacrificing torque in the midranges. This means that the torque will be relatively constant throught the powerband, while if you look at the dynos for the DASC system, it is peaky. Also, your drop off point for power is going to be significantly higher, meaning that if your engine can handle the higher revs, then you will make higher max hp (quite possibly on par or greater than the dasc). If there is enough support for the system, then hopefully I can run a comparison test between the two systems.""

Ok, you have a point with the hp curve with the DASC, but keep in mind that this can be fixed with proper tuning (see techniquetuning.com). Correct me if I'm wrong, but new ECU software would have to be developed to compensate for this new variable valve system. Do you have someone to develop this software or are you just going to bolt it up and pray that it works?

We do not have VANOS, I didn't have to remove the head to install my DASC:

VANOS is a combined hydraulic and mechanical camshaft control device managed by the car's DME engine management system.

The VANOS system is based on an adjustment mechanism that can modify the position of the intake camshaft versus the crankshaft. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.

VANOS operates on the intake camshaft in accordance with engine speed and accelerator pedal position. At the lower end of the engine-speed scale, the intake valves are opened later, which improves idling quality and smoothness. At moderate engine speeds, the intake valves open much earlier, which boosts torque and permits exhaust gas re-circulation inside the combustion chambers, reducing fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Finally, at high engine speeds, intake valve opening is once again delayed, so that full power can be developed.

VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3.

VANOS was first introduced in 1992 on the BMW M50 engine used in the 5 Series.



Here's how it works:

In overhead cam engines, the cams are connected to the crankshaft by either a belt or chain and gears. In BMW VANOS motors there is a chain and some sprockets.

The crankshaft drives a sprocket on the exhaust cam, and the exhaust cam sprocket is bolted to the exhaust cam. A second set of teeth moves a second chain that goes across to the intake cam. The big sprocket on the intake cam is not bolted to the cam, for it has a big hole in the middle. Inside the hole is a helical set of teeth. On the end of the cam is a gear that is also helical on the outside, but it's too small to connect to the teeth on the inside of the big sprocket. There is a little cup of metal with helical teeth to match the cam on the inside and to match the sprocket on the outside. The V (Variable) in VANOS is due to the helical nature of the teeth. The cup gear is moved by a hydraulic mechanism that works on oil pressure controlled by the DME.

At idle, the cam timing is retarded. Just off idle, the DME energizes a solenoid which allows oil pressure to move that cup gear to advance the cam 12.5 degrees at midrange, and then at about 5000 rpm, it allows it to come back to the original position. The greater advance causes better cylinder fill at mid rpms for better torque. The noise some people hear is the result of tolerances that make the sprocket wiggle a bit as the cup gear is moved in or out.

[tengohambre]

the ecu is reprogrammed to correspond to rpms and load, rather than manifold pressure (he claims that because the throttle is removed that the engine keeps near atmospheric pressure).

[bimmerboi318]

I believe what the DASC website says you lose after install is the intake plenum diverter valve thing (technical I know ) It's not VANOS, but it just redirects the intake air through a couple different paths in the manifold. The DASC replaces the part of the manifold that that valve is in.

[angel318ti]

I think we have somebody trying to make a quik buck.

[Phil Marx]

I recall seeing someone trying to sell the same "technology" on Ebay a while back. Smells like a scam to me.

-Phil

[mischief]

have u seen the vid clips kinda cool

would be cool for a NA motor

[Will'sBimmer]

this sounds fishy but even if it were true who in thier right mind would give 3,000 F^cking dollars to have this done and then have promblems with smog emissions and braking. For 3,000 dollars i am going to have my motor and transmission swapped for a M3 motor and trans with a new diff. and that would put me at a whole better place on the dyno chart than something like what this person is trying to sell. come on we are Ti kings on here we know what is performance.

[FATHER]

Wow , this peopleo of patakkon are amazing, you see the engines ideas, videos, animation, also see the civic engine withot TB, wow is amazin the fast rev of that engine

[Mothman]

Love the ending!

Originally Posted by DustenT

I have a couple concerns:

"I'm guessing that you will also have a gain in both max hp and max torque because of a couple reasons"
--Seems like a lot of $$ to spend on speculation.

"the price of individual throttle bodies for the honda b16 engine"
--I've never seen a b16 Honda with individual throttle bodies.

"if 50 people would be interested"
--He needs $150,000 up front?

"There are no dyno charts or anything like that"
--For that price you can buy a DASC and be guaranteed a 40% gain.

From 318ti.net - "removes the restriction of the throttle body and does away with the vanos unit"
--Neither the m42 or the m44 uses Vanos.

I'm sure everyone appreciates you posting this, but it's going to be a tough sell without some hard data. I don't think I will ever replace a factory BMW part with an untested "engineering graduate student's" experiment.