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There's been plenty of threads, but none as detailed as this one. I'm confident that I have identified the source of our problems and developed a permanent solution. I "fixed" my window many times before I finally got sick of dealing with it and was on the verge of retrofitting...
Last edited by cooljess76; 07-08-2010 at 09:42 AM. |  |  | By Eric on 05-29-2010, 10:41 PM | Thanks, Jess!
Just adding my 0.02 on this subject... I had had the door and window apart a few times, but I could never get the darn thing to stay in the track when rolled fully down - One or two gentle slams, and she was out - so I've spent the past two or three years just never putting it down all the way, which was slightly annoying to me, but put me in fear of THE PHONE CALL whenever my wife drove the car. So, a few days ago, I decided to finally search for a fix (okay, so I'm patient), and came across this thread (as well as a few others). Very little in here was new to me, as I had gone through the whole system very thoroughly when I had it apart, but there was one thing that was a real epiphany: The tracks themselves can move and bend, even though they may not have any adjustments. I had noted that the one adjusting bolt on the rear track was in its original position, so I had not bothered to look into the possibility of track movement any further. Today I pulled the door apart again, put the window down, gave it a few slams, and saw that it dislocated toward the outside from the front track. Inspection showed that the bottom of the track was opened too wide, and also bent a bit outwards. Following Jess's advice, I set about bending it inwards. This was very hard. There is almost no room in there to get anything on the track to grab it. Finally, I was able to get a pair of small (5") ViseGrips on it, and move it just a tiny bit of the time. The track channel is wider on the inside than on the outside, so in order to bend the outside inwards, the ViseGrips had to press against the inside portion, which bent the inside part inwards (opening the channel up) as well. Because of this, I had to then go back and bend the inside part back toward the outside (closing the channel up) after I had bent the outside. All of this was very slow and painstaking, with two right fingers through the forward access hole, and my left arm stuffed into the door against the regulator gears. When I was done, I noticed that the track seemed a bit twisted toward the outside, so I used a big screwdriver between the front edge of the forward access hole and the back of the channel to twist it back a bit, which also dinged up the edge of the access hole, but that's life. I haven't driven it around yet, but so far it's held tight through some hard slams. My points of advice on this subject: - It ain't easy to bend the edges of those darn tracks, but keep at it, and you can do it a tiny bit at a time. Don't try this when you're pressed for time.
- Since the outside edge of the front track is much lower than the inside edge, it's more likely that the window will jump toward the outside. If it jumps toward the inside, the track is really bent, or the problem is somewhere else.
- You can rotate the whole front track slightly with enough "persuasion," so consider that option as well.
- It's hard to actually see the parts of the track you need to see. The only way to see directly is from the top through the window slot, with the inside weather squeegee removed. You can also stick a camera into the big access hole and photograph it, then look at the picture.
- When the window is out of the front track, it can actually move a shocking 3" or more forward when it is rolled down. This can happen when it first dislodges on you, and can really wreak havoc with all the inside parts, snapping those little nylon sliders, bending tracks, bending regulator arms, and even shattering the glass.
- Those black plastic fastener standoffs that are glued to the door panel can be repaired with a variety of substances. The ones I fixed a few years ago with silicone sealant (a great adhesive, especially for glass) are still on tight, but I fixed the new ones that broke off this time with 2-part epoxy.
- I believe that many of the things that some have obsessed over in the past, such as straightening the regulator arms perfectly, getting new sliders, and making sure every bit of old grease is out of the grooves, are not nearly as important as fixing any bends that occurred in the tracks when the glass first came out.
Remember, it didn't just fall out of the tracks, it was forced by the regulator pushing it at a bad angle, usually because one of the regulator arms came away from the plastic sliders, and the force bent the track before the track released the window.
Arms should be eyeballed straight, grooves should be clean, lubed, and move smoothly, but the darn tracks HAVE to be straightened.
Anyhow, now that the epoxy's dry, I'm going to drive it around and see if it stays put! - Eric Photo Descriptions: 1. Glass out of Front track toward the outside, looking down into the door. 2. This is how far forward the glass can move when it's out of the front track 3. Bottom of the front track before fixing it - it's flared out. 4. Front track bent straighter. 5. Front track after fixing it - doesn't look like much, but seems to have worked. | | | | |
^^^Good stuff Eric. That's exactly what I was trying to explain in the writeup. And you are absolutely correct about the sliders and regulator arms not being as important as the tracks being straight. I mean, you can install a new regulator, new sliders and clips and the problem will just continue if the tracks are still bent from when the window initially went off track the very first time. I've tried to stress this issue, as well as straightening the tracks not being an easy task, but I still hear of people skipping that step or half-assing it because it was more difficult than they were willing to deal with. You'd be amazed at how many people refuse to beleive that the problem isn't the actual regulator and go out and replace an expensive regulator or plastic clips thinking it'll fix their problem. And finally, the chunky grease is probably what caused the issues to begin with, so make sure all of that stuff is scraped out of the slider track and replaced with some fresh grease. Again, thanks for the clarification Eric, I'm sure it'll work for you this time. Hopefully you won't have to deal with any window problems for a long time now. | | | By Eric on 05-30-2010, 12:55 AM |
Quote: Originally Posted by cooljess76  ...the chunky grease is probably what caused the issues to begin with, so make sure all of that stuff is scraped out of the slider track and replaced with some fresh grease. | Thanks, Jess. I had already cleaned and greased both sides the first time this happened, so no worries there. The grease I applied then is still there and slippery (black Ford wheel bearing grease). I didn't go crazy removing every trace of the old grease, though - as long as the parts that actually rub against the sliders are clear, every trace doesn't have to be removed and polished to a mirror shine, like you know some people are doing. I think the order of failure is: - grease gets hard -->
- causes resistance / friction / excess force to move the window -->
- these wear on the nylon sliders, ultimately causing one to crack or just loosen up too much -->
- ball end of regulator pops out of slider (first "bad sound") -->
- window cocks as it is moving up (second "bad sound"), pushed unevenly by remaining arm and slider -->
- ball end that is loose strikes some part of its slider track, snagging on its way up or down (third "bad sound"), and bending as it does so, also possibly misdirecting that end of the window too far up or down, also applying some lateral force -->
- window shifts under uneven force from regulator (now probably on the second or third up / down cycle, as driver absentmindedly operates window switch back and forth, walking window into worse and worse position with each cycle) -->
- window binds in its up and down direction and is forced sideways out of its track by the force of the regulator, bending the track, popping out, and ultimately falling into the door when the remaining ball end pops out of the slider.
I think I've thought about this too much, but I seem to have a handle on it now. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction on this - I doubt it would have occurred to me without your post. - Eric | | | | |
No worries man, I'm sure you would've figured it out. Your story sounds exactly like mine. I was at my wits end with this problem and I knew I wasn't the only one. It's a 318ti defect, no ti is immune to it. I was literally on the verge of calling a friend in Europe and having him send me both doors or parts to convert my windows to manual roller uppers. Finally I sat down with the door apart and thought the whole thing through. I knew there was a design flaw because our windows/doors are the same size as e36 coupe doors(they're not interchangeable though), but our cars use the same regulators as e36 sedans and they have smaller/lighter windows. At that point I was trying to think of a way to re-engineer BMW's screw up. That's when I created a timeline in my head on how/why the windows come off track. From the second you push the button to the moment of failure. That's when it dawned on me. In order for the window to come off track, the vertical tracks have to flex! I had never heard of anyone addressing the vertical tracks, just dozens of stories where people replaced sliders and regulators. People even took their cars to dealerships where the regulators were replaced and the problems continued to come back until they finally gave up. It all started to make sense, the problem wasn't the regulators, that was just a subsequential problem. People usually experienced window problems after the cars became a few years old. Just long enough for the grease to harden! So I asked myself why, with fresh slippery grease, do the windows still come off track? Only one answer made sense, the vertical tracks get bent when the window comes off track. Replace grease, straighten tracks(and regulator arms if needed), you're good to go for another 10 years  | | | | |
well now I'm kicking myself for never getting around to regreasing the windows like I said I would, both of them failed, I'll get pics if I think of it but I'll probably be too busy swearing and throwing tools around | | | | |
Yes, Finally! I've been at my end with my windows too. It's been so bad that for the past 2 months I've been driving around without the door panels so I can drive around with my windows down and put the window in it's place(my blower motor is dead). Now I know what I'm doing next weekend. | | | | |
just something to add, I put new sliders in when I did my drivers side, I lubed them up really good and slid them back and forth several times to get them loose but when I put the window back together and starting testing it, it would bind about halfway down, swapping back to the original sliders solved the problem
I'd recommend reusing the original sliders whenever possible, maybe sanding down the edges of the new sliders to get a looser fit | | | | |
Brendan, I'll take those new sliders if you don't want them...
I had my window come off again. But it wasn't the vertical tracks that were the problem... The sliders had a very small cracked piece on the neck where the ball pops in and is supposed to be held inplace by the c-clips. So this allowed the clips to rotate and catch on the track, pop off, then the ball joint would pop out of the slider, and down comes the window... | | | | |
I had issues with my sliders being broken, like James, so I had to use new ones. I found that if you just squish the tabs with pliers it lets them slide like they should. | | | | |
Quote: Originally Posted by wolferj Brendan, I'll take those new sliders if you don't want them... | two of them are covered in a combination of axle grease and white lithium grease, I won't charge you extra for that  send me a PM | | | By E36Wes on 07-04-2010, 10:32 AM |
Dammit. My Window is making some weird type of noise. I will be tackling this this weekend maybe. I kind of feel like buying brand new regulators and all the hardware today and just replacing both sides so I dont have to deal with this or be worried about it in the near future. I hope that it all goes well. | | | | |
Quote: Originally Posted by E36Wes Dammit. My Window is making some weird type of noise. I will be tackling this this weekend maybe. I kind of feel like buying brand new regulators and all the hardware today and just replacing both sides so I dont have to deal with this or be worried about it in the near future. I hope that it all goes well. | sigh...  Quote: Originally Posted by cooljess76 ^^^Good stuff Eric. That's exactly what I was trying to explain in the writeup. And you are absolutely correct about the sliders and regulator arms not being as important as the tracks being straight. I mean, you can install a new regulator, new sliders and clips and the problem will just continue if the tracks are still bent from when the window initially went off track the very first time. I've tried to stress this issue, as well as straightening the tracks not being an easy task, but I still hear of people skipping that step or half-assing it because it was more difficult than they were willing to deal with. You'd be amazed at how many people refuse to beleive that the problem isn't the actual regulator and go out and replace an expensive regulator or plastic clips thinking it'll fix their problem. And finally, the chunky grease is probably what caused the issues to begin with, so make sure all of that stuff is scraped out of the slider track and replaced with some fresh grease. Again, thanks for the clarification Eric, I'm sure it'll work for you this time. Hopefully you won't have to deal with any window problems for a long time now. | | | Last edited by cooljess76; 07-04-2010 at 07:11 PM.. | By Eric on 07-05-2010, 07:51 PM |
^^^^^ +1 ^^^^^ | | | By E36Wes on 07-08-2010, 05:02 AM |
holy crap, cant believe i didnt even read the thread. Didnt realize there were 7 pages to this...sorry
lol wont be buying all new parts then. | | | | |
Hm, definitely going to try to get to this later today. I had left the car with a shop for twelve days over the holiday weekend, and by Day 12 when they couldn't solve the problem and told me they were considering drilling out the front track to bolt it a littler further up I told them to shove it with a fist, paid the $96 for the new regulator they ordered and got my poor car the hell outta there.
Thanks Jesse for the seemingly awesome write-up and Eric for the great pictures! Hopefully this all works out | | | | |
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