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Old 07-17-2007, 08:23 PM   #1
96cali
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Default 2.8L Z3 drivetrain swap? (opinions please)

Those familiar with the Z3 and Ti know they share a lot- both were offered with the M44 engine and the e30 style rear trailing arm suspension. Lots of Ti enthusiasts (like me) are attracted to swapping an S50/52 into the ti due to the great power/weight ratio (Ti=2750lb dry, lighter than a Z). But there are tradeoffs (heavier front end, hard to keep ASC, more power=bigger brakes, diff, the price of a good S52, etc) if you still want this to be a daily driver that might see snow, carry a child, etc. So how about the 193hp M52? Affordable and plentiful. What about the Aluminum block 2.8 from a Z3? 60lbs lighter you say? Even better.

Here is what I am wondering- could it be cost effective and yield a better result to buy a good condition 1998-1999 2.8 Z3 at auction and swap the entire drivetrain and suspension into my 103k mile 1999 Mtech 318ti? I'm talking motor, trans, electrical, ASC, rear subframe, diff, axles, shocks, springs, wheels- from one car to another? You would end up with a 328ti to drive and a 1.9L Z3 to sell back onto the market. I think a +/- 80k mile Z3 might sell for $8000 at auction while a 105k mile 1.9 Z3 with the right colors and shined up might go for the same.

The thing that kills me is the labor- I guess the only way to justify this approach would be if having the cars side by side in operable condition makes everything easier.

What would not work between these 2 cars? Not sure about cooling systems or brakes (I cannot find specs on 2.8 Z3 brake diameters anywhere). I think the 328tiz would be nice in stock form though the shocks might be tired at 80k. I have a 3.45 LSD that is the same as the 1.9 Z came with too.

All thoughts are welcome but be forewarned I'm married to the cali-roof Ti for now so no "Eff that dude buy an M3" comments please.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:16 PM   #2
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Based on Realoem.com spec sheets, your ti uses the same front brake setup as the 2.8 Z3, so you wouldnt need to swap those over. Sometime in 98 all ti's manufactured after that date got the same brakes as the other e36's. Not sure about the suspension setup, but i would just purchase a setup for the ti rather than swapping the used setup from the Z3. Getting the M52tub28 instead of the M52b28 is a pretty good idea for weight savings, not sure if there are weaknesses when compared to the cast iron block.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:51 PM   #3
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From what I can read the aluminum block has steel sleeves which just means it can't be bored out which I am not interested in anyway.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:56 PM   #4
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Ah, i wouldve never figured that out. Do you plan to just stick the engine in without mods and whatnot?
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:07 AM   #5
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No serious mods but one could throw in an S50 cam.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...&highlight=m52

My goal is a nice balanced car not monster hp. If I ever wanted a quick boost I could also just Shark it. The Dinan software on my M44 is very nice just changing the revs it feels better.
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:53 AM   #6
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Isnt that post just for the bottom end to create a stroker 2.9? Are the s50 cams the same as the s52 cams? One would think that it would be more beneficial to get the s52 cams to run in the m52, especially if you do the broker bottom end.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:43 PM   #7
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speaking of swaps. . . is $2200-$2800 a good price for an S50 w/ 150k miles that was pulled out of a car that had been in an accident?
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:11 PM   #8
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I see s50/2 engines go for all kinds of prices, mostly in the $3500+ range. Id really look into the condition of the engine, and have all aspects checked out before buying it. My m52 swap is costing about 2300-2700 all together, and less if i can sell off my M44 stuff.
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:14 PM   #9
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Your "total swap" idea is reasonable, and do-able.

Bear in mind there are several differences beyond the obvious ones when you do a total swap like what you are proposing. The wiring harness, for example, is quite different. Any options on the ti not on the roadster will be lost. Any options on the roadster not on the ti will be lost. Dependant on how these are integrated into the car's other systems, this could cause serious trouble.

Details such as the extending of the wiring harness to reach the taillights and anything else beyond the front seat backs need to be considered. Location of the fuel pump relay and all the modules (traction control, EWS etc.) are different, but not everything is different. You would need the factory workshop manual (not the POS over-the-counter ones) for both cars to even attempt this job, even with my skill level or better. Many mechanics would not even consider taking on this job.

Definitely the 'right' way to do it, but you will be disassembling and reassembling two complete cars- torn down to the bare frame for the most part- the dash has to come out etc... Expect to not drive either car for close to a year, possibly more. A simple series Land-Rover tear-down and rebuild takes about 9 months if you are good. A BMW has more than double the complexity. So, let's say 11 months per car, or 22 months total to have both cars running and driving.

When you are all done, you have a ti with an odd engine, with a far more odd wiring system and cut/extended/modified electrics. NO dealer in the world will touch that with a 10-foot pole. How do I know? The dealers now-a-days won't even scan my lightly modified car, and I have to replace and re-code my traction control computer to pass emissions (long story). I need my own MODIC computer. Anyone got one for sale? You will never be able to sell the car unless you create a new modified workshop manual which covers all the changes to the electrical stsrems. An M3 swap is simple campared to what you are proposing.

Is it worth it? Maybe. For a 2.8 conversion? Probably not. Since you will do the labor yourself, you can save a bundle. If you were paying for this job, you could get a fully loaded, brand new, E46 M3 and probably have money left over for gas to drive to Vegas and gamble for a few days. You have to decide if it is the right thing to do....
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:20 PM   #10
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I think when he was talking about electronics, he meant the engine harness. I highly doubt he wants to have these cars down for very long to do such extensive work that really isnt needed. I think the purpose of his swap is to take the 2.8, harness, DME, and anything to upgrade the ti with, and the parts from the ti that are being replaced will go into the z3 for resell.
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:24 PM   #11
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Well, you may be right.

I used an M roadster engine in my swap, and this complicated things quite a bit.

Fortunately for the engine swap manual buyer, I have detailed the differences between the ti, M3 and M roadster engine and wiring configurations to reduce the learning curve I went through. The differences will be similar with the 2.8 from the Z3, but the traction control module might actually work in that case, since the Z3 had the simplistic ASC rather than the better ASC of the M3 (as far as I know- I may be wrong and the 2.8 had the better ASC). Mine does not work (and I don't care) but since he wants overturing to work as from the factory, this will require creative use of traction control modules, wiring and the MODIC computer to align all the parts properly.

I have listed some of the other problems in my earlier post.

If the swap was from a standard 328i (NOT a Z3 2.8) this would be as easy as it looks. Since it is from a Z3, it is quite a bit more involved than you might think. To get the best of everything, you need the Z3 2.8 motor, 328i wiring harness and computer, and the dealer for ECU/EWS alignment. Then it should work, but possibly not the traction control. This may require the rest of the harness from the 328i. Since the dash is so different, you might as well change the entire dash with the one from the 328i, and so on... You see how it becomes a snowball effect. You have to cut your losses at some point. Only the person doing the job can determine where that will be.

I know from first-hand experience, NOT from the crap written all over the web...
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:30 PM   #12
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Why would one need the dash harness for just the engine swap? Im putting the 2.8 from a 328 in my ti, and was planning on getting the DME, engine harness, engine, and a few other things, but the actual harness for the car was not on my list. I dont plan to do the OBC conversion or anything, because i dont feel its a neccessity.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:02 PM   #13
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If you want the traction control to work, you need to switch everything.

Just the engine and harness will get you 99% of the way to a completed swap.

Whose swap are we talking about; his our yours? it sounds like we have two threads here... Who hijacked who?

As always, my swap manual is available. All the questions on this topic are answered there...
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:27 PM   #14
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I had misread your statement in the post above. I read it as though it is required to have the rest of the harness, rather than you need the harness if you want asc. I took this information and applied it to my project, but i guess it wouldnt pertain to me seeing as how i dont use asc or have it hooked up for the m44 that was in there. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 07-19-2007, 08:48 PM   #15
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My ultimate desire is to have an aluminum block 2.8, retain traction control and change my diff ratio to something like the 3.15 that comes in the z3 2.8. Beyond that, the attraction to swap parts was physical as opposed to electrical and to retain some purity in factory design. Plus it was an approach I have not seen discussed.

So to put it another way, Jim (or anyone else)- if I wanted an aluminum blocked 2.8 with traction control how would you do it? What is desirable (Z3 rear subframe and diff?) vs. essential?

I think the 2.8 Z rear end has the single tab diff hanger that is prone to tearing so that would be reinforced.
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