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Old 11-14-2006, 10:16 PM   #1
mohaughn
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Default About to start my suspension upgrades, what am I missing.

OK. So before I undertake this rather large upgrade I'm looking for any feedback in terms of what I'm missing. I think I have just about everything covered. I've been using the other thread by pdxmotorhead as my guide for the most part. And yes, I know that the delrin and urethane bushings will dramatically increase noise and vibration in the car.

Shocks/springs- TCKline/Koni coilovers(come with rear shock mounts)

Swaybars- Racing Dynamics Ti kit(includes links and bushings), this depends on what TCKline recommends(may do the 28mm front bar with no rear bar per the other recent threads on here.)

Front mounts- KMAC camber/castor plates

Ireland engineering or bavauto rear camber adjustment kits(leaning towards the IE kits(camber and toe). I need to check with my mechanic who races an e30 with NASA on what he runs and what he will charge to install these kits.

HD control arms(already bought)
TH Racing eyeball arms(still undecided on these or just M3 offset lcabs)

Front subframe reinforcements from turner
rear sway bar reinforcement from turner
motorsport x-brace

rear subrame bushings(urethane)
delrin differential mount from turner
Trailing arm bushings(urethane) from IE
Motor mounts(urethane) from IE

I know that I don't have a front strut brace included, but until I know what I'm doing for an engine I'm not going to buy a part that I later have to try and sell at a loss.

I'm also going to talk with my mechanic and see about enforcing the rear trailing arms per the DIY articles on the e30m3 site unless somebody knows of a better way to get stronger rear arms without swapping in a Z3M rear subframe. I don't need the larger rear brakes, so if I can reinforce the arms myself it will be much cheaper this way.

To bad this will end up taking a few months to complete. I need more vacation days.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:22 PM   #2
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X brace = strut bar..and owns the bar if you buy a cheap0 and it's hinged.

just go with the Xbrace and then get some Motorsport Strut covers.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:46 PM   #3
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Why do people keep saying that hinged strut braces are cheap. That is totally based on the entire design of the bar. My Racing Dynamics is hinged, and the hinge pins are stronger than most of the chassis. Besides, the force is in a direction that has no shearing effect on the pins. Now if you are talking about the "Sparco" or similar design, then I agree. These bars mount on a tangent point to the ring securing to your strut mount. When force is applied towards the strut, it causes a torquing effect on the ring, and basically reduces it's efficiency. The Racing Dynamic bar is pinned through the center of the ring, so no rotational torque on the ring.

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Originally Posted by Panzer_M View Post
X brace = strut bar..and owns the bar if you buy a cheap0 and it's hinged.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzer_M View Post
X brace = strut bar..and owns the bar if you buy a cheap0 and it's hinged.
I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Panzer... They both work to help stiffen the front of the car, which is particularly flexy. I do however agree on your opinion of the hinged bars. They tend to be garbage. Get the M3 LTW bar (if it fits on your final engine decision- I made an offset piece for each end of mine). It is pre-loadable, and BMW quality.

A few details I don't see mentioned are the M3 strut top reinforcements and Z3 rear shock mount reinforcements. Cheap and well worth the money. These could be welded in for extra security, or to repair ripped rear shock mounts.

Rear shock strut bars are a waste of time, money and weight on the ti; but I think you already knew that. The "legendary" E46 rear shock mounts are GARBAGE.

Reinforcing the trailing arms is not a bad idea per se; however I believe the stock they are manufactured from is a thinner gage than the MZ trailing arms in addition to the physical size differences. One thing is for sure, if you run a rear sway bar, the mount on the trailing arms MUST be reinforced.

I have heard good things about the "butt strut" for the Z3 cars. It may be worth adding to your list, since you seem to be constructing a slot car that rides like a truck. I could see rear sub frame mounting points beginning to crack... Might not be a bad idea to reinforce these areas while the sub frame is out. A 6-8 point cage will stiffen the chassis far more than any of the other ideas mentioned here. Gutting the interior will lower the CG which is a good thing. If you have a sun roof, loose it, and replace the roof center with a plain panel. The glass would be the final frontier, but lexan is your friend. Ditch the window mechanisms and add a strap with snaps to hold the window up.

The rough ride may be acceptable to you, the driver, but the car may not like it. Be aware that such a rough riding car will begin to crack in unusual places from the vibration transfer through the more solid mountings throughout the car. Food for thought...

Please see my signature... It's all explained there.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:03 AM   #5
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Thanks Jim. I appreciate the feedback. When I get a strut bar it will be of the non-hinged variety.

Interior of the car is already gutted except for the airbags, and headliner, and the sunroof. This is not an everyday driver, and I plan on being able to use my brother-in-laws vehicle trailer next year to get to any track days that i attend. So once this is all done I don't even see it being driven on the street very much if at all.

I wasn't sure if the front strut tops and rear strut reinforcements were needed if you are using aftermarket shock mounts. So I'll make sure to pick those up. I'm guessing that the m3 front strut tops will fit over the KMAC plates without any problem? Since I'm ordering most of that stuff from turner and they sell those reinforcement plates I'll make sure to doublecheck with them when I order.

For the rear sway bar reinforcements I'm guessing that an e30 rear sway bar reinforcement kit will do it for me right? From what I've research it seems like they attach the same way. I was hoping to be able to use the IE billet swaybar mounting tabs but Jeff Ireland doesn't think they will fit the Ti since the rear floor is different from that of an e30.

As for the rear subframe reinforcements I'm guessing that I may need to come up with some custom reinforcements. I've not seen any E30/Ti style rear subframe reinforcements. I know that the extra vibrations will wreak havoc on the frame so that is why I'm not going to do this without making sure to reinforce the frame where needed. My mechanic is experienced in race prepping cars so he will be doing all of the reinforcements so I'm putting my faith in him to help me identify any other weak areas and making up anything that can't be bought in kit form.

Given the price of this suspension the interior cage is going to have to wait. But that is in the plans along with some decent racing seats and a good harness. I figure when I do the cage and seats that is when I will strip the rest of the interior and put in a nice momo steering wheel, and figure something out for the sunroof.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:10 AM   #6
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It sounds like you are on the right track with this project. (Ha ha right track! Get it! Ha ha!)

Since it is a dedicated car, I would finish gutting it, and add a nice cage. Turner can seriously hook you up in that area as they build some seriously competitive cars. If your tech has car-prep experience, I'm surprised he has not mentioned this himself.

The E36 in general is a very 'soft' platform. Reinforcements are absolutely mandatory; however the re-assignment of that stress can cause something else to fail that you hadn't even considered before...

If you elect to NOT put a cage in it, I would inspect that car FULLY after every use, to be sure you don't have cracks forming. If it was me, I would not race it without a cage, and I don't know anyone who would allow such a heavily modified car without one. Where are you planning to race it?
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:30 AM   #7
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He has recommended turner, he actually said that they are the only company that he orders most of his parts from. At this point it won't be "raced" as I don't have a competitive license... I make sure to say that I'm not racing as I know the Bfc folks hate for HPDE drivers to say they are racing. So far I've done a couple of weekends with PBOC and I plan on doing some auto-x with BMWCCA before PBOC starts back up again next year. They have an event at Sebring in January but I don't think I will have the car done by then. So I'm hoping sometime in March I can get back on the track. I know there is no way I can hang with the cars that race in the PBOC races, so I may look at doing something with NASA once I get to that level. At this point I really enjoy being out on the track and I'm not super competitive so I don't mind the fact that I'm not competing.

If I were actually running in a "race group" a cage would be required. What I'm doing is not open passing, and they come down on you real quick if they think you are doing anything to agro or out of your skill level. I'm running in the intermediate run group and hope to kick up to the advanced group after the next weekend or two.

I do plan on having a cage before I even attempt to perform any solo runs. Solo runs as in on an actual track without an instructor in the car with me. Not solo2 runs.


Would you say that to get the type of reinforcement I need for this car to avoid any future problems I need a full weld in cage or a bolt-in? The weld-ins just seem safer to me, and I don't want to be cutting any corners when it comes to my safety. I may need to just plan on getting this all done a month later and go ahead and do a cage now as well. I was planning on later next year for that.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:17 AM   #8
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It is best to weld it in for sure...

Or rather, "have it welded in by a certified welder" might be a better statement...
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:37 AM   #9
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I have absolutely no clue how to weld.. So I won't even be trying to DIY that one... I'm planning on putting in the coilovers, control arms, mounts, and sway bars myself... Basically the no brainer stuff that doesn't require any weird tools. All of the bushings, motor mounts, and anything that has to be welded will be done by a professional. I'm not about to buy this kind of suspension and then screw something up by trying to shadetree it.
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:39 AM   #10
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Good man.
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Old 11-15-2006, 03:00 AM   #11
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I know about the this and that of strut bars. I've just yet to see a good design that will work well with the M44/42 intake manifold..the BMP and Sparce and Dbilas Dynamics...I've spent too much $$$ on too many cars to really go into a 100-400$ bar...400$ that can go into a set of Konis or something else.

Not starting anything just talking of my own experiance.
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Old 12-04-2006, 02:26 AM   #12
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If you use the front M3 style shocks can you still use the stock wheel bearings and assembly? Basically curious if the bottom mount of the M3 style shock is identical to the bottom mount of the stock shock.

I've read a few different places that say the design on the M3 where the swaybay attaches to the shock is a much better design that on our cars where it fits on the control arm. Since I'm replacing both the front springs/shock, and doing sway bars I'd like to go with the style that mounts onto the shock. TcKline is running a holiday sale, so I might end up with these sooner than I planned on it.


edit- Nevermind.. Found the answer, just different sway bar end links.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:45 PM   #13
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I've been emailing with Pete Stackhouse at TCKline and he said that running a rear sway bar with good stiff coilovers is not needed. He recommends a 28MM front H&R swaybar with the links attached to the strut, not the control arm. Their coilovers come with the attachment point to put the sway bar onto the front strut. You just need to buy the M3 front sway bar links seperate.

So I think I will give the rear sway-bar delete a try. It actually ends up saving me a fair bit of money as I don't have to reinforce the rear sway bar mounting tab and I don't have to buy a stiffer rear sway bar. I'm just waiting on him to get back to me on the recommended spring rates for a stripped Ti.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohaughn View Post
I've been emailing with Pete Stackhouse at TCKline and he said that running a rear sway bar with good stiff coilovers is not needed. He recommends a 28MM front H&R swaybar with the links attached to the strut, not the control arm. Their coilovers come with the attachment point to put the sway bar onto the front strut. You just need to buy the M3 front sway bar links seperate.

So I think I will give the rear sway-bar delete a try. It actually ends up saving me a fair bit of money as I don't have to reinforce the rear sway bar mounting tab and I don't have to buy a stiffer rear sway bar. I'm just waiting on him to get back to me on the recommended spring rates for a stripped Ti.
Awesome. Please post the specs when you get them. Like I posted previously, TCKline recommends rear bar delete on M-Roadys, so it's no surprise they recommend it for the 318ti too. Good info.
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Old 12-05-2006, 08:06 PM   #15
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OK. Just had a really good conversation with the guys at TcKline..

They recommend 550 front and 500 rear for a Ti that will not be driven on the street very much.

Their struts can have the front swaybar attached to the strut but if the car was being setup there they would probably attach it to the control arm with adjustable end links. Which is weird because UUC and another local racer I talked to said that having it on the strut is better. No rear bar.

I also asked what they do for rear camber/castor adjustment and they don't do anything. They have used the Bavauto(KMAC) bushings as well as the Ireland Engineering kit and did not really care for either one of them.

For a car that will not be driven on the street very much he recommended getting 5mm spring pads for the rear and not using the ride height adjustable spring perch that comes with their kit. The 5mm spring pads(33531136385) with their shorty springs gives the rear of the car their preferred ride height. This should also put the camber into an acceptable range for a track car. He said you can still properly cornerweight the car without having rear ride height adjustment. Of course the ride height adjustment perches could always be added later if you wanted to use them.
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