Coilovers and M3 sway bar

[vwmikel]

So, I have a '95 318TI with '95 S50 and M3 front suspension. I've been looking at coilover options and logically it would seem that I should get M3 front suspension and 318TI rear suspension so that the M3 front sway bar links can connect to the strut housings where they belong. So, that brings me to the question of whether or not any of you out there who are using coilovers of various brands might know if they have the provisions for the front sway bar link? Do I have to try to order a split set?

[mohaughn]

If you order M3 specific front shocks, they will have the provisions for the sway bar to mount to the strut. Several of the higher end brands have those provisions regardless. Koni DAs have them on the 318ti kit, and I'm pretty sure groundcontrol kits and AST kits also have it.

So you will have to check for the specific kit you are ordering. Although, on a street driven car, you will never notice the difference.

[vwmikel]

Originally Posted by mohaughn

If you order M3 specific front shocks, they will have the provisions for the sway bar to mount to the strut. Several of the higher end brands have those provisions regardless. Koni DAs have them on the 318ti kit, and I'm pretty sure groundcontrol kits and AST kits also have it.

So you will have to check for the specific kit you are ordering. Although, on a street driven car, you will never notice the difference.

The point wasn't really whether I'd notice the difference, but that's the sway bar I have so that's what I need to hook up. I'm looking at coilover kits though. Struts/shocks and springs always seemed like a bit of a waste of money when you can get coilovers for the same price or a few bucks extra.

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by vwmikel

Struts/shocks and springs always seemed like a bit of a waste of money when you can get coilovers for the same price or a few bucks extra.

I completely disagree. For the money you'd spend on a quality set of shocks, struts and springs, you'd get absolute crap when it comes to coilovers. I'd take Bilstein or Koni shocks and struts paired with H&R or Eibach springs any day over cheap Chinese coilovers.

Kids these days think coilovers are the only way to go when most of them don't even drive their cars hard enough to justify having them. Most of them lower their cars down to the bumpstops and never touch them again, so the theory that they're better because of their adjustability is thrown out the window along with performance and handling. If you're into the vDUB "stance" thing, just cut your springs and call it done. There's no point in wasting money on anything performance related if your car is just going to be driven from one parking lot to another.

SpasticDwarf cracked me up with his old rusty e28. That car was butchered. He chopped the roof, the chassis, grinded all of the paint off of it and at first he was running coilovers (because in his mind it was the "right" way to do things) Then he slammed the car all the way down to the ground and ran ridiculously stretched tires. At that point, do you think coilovers really helped performance? He already cut everything else on the car, might as well cut the suspension too, lol. Eventually he did, he went with airbags. But my point is, there is no point. If you only care about looks, cut the springs. You're not going to mess your car up any worse than you would from scraping and slamming over potholes.

Now if you're being honest WITH YOURSELF and you do plan on tracking your car, you could invest in a quality set of coilovers. Not that KW BS or any of the other crap kids are buying these days. I'm talking about TC Kline, Bilstein PSS9, H&R, Ground Control etc. Otherwise if you're going to drive your car mostly on the street like 99.99999% of the people and want a comfortable, well handling ride that is more than adequate for street/occasional track use, stick with good quality shocks/springs

[spidertri]

What kits are you looking at? TC Kline coils are the same for M and non-M so they have mounting tabs on the strut bodies. Do you not have the ti front bar? It is thicker than the M bar, just mounts to the control arms. I've heard that it is a better set up that way.

[vwmikel]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

I completely disagree. For the money you'd spend on a quality set of shocks, struts and springs, you'd get absolute crap when it comes to coilovers. I'd take Bilstein or Koni shocks and struts paired with H&R or Eibach springs any day over cheap Chinese coilovers.

Kids these days think coilovers are the only way to go when most of them don't even drive their cars hard enough to justify having them. Most of them lower their cars down to the bumpstops and never touch them again, so the theory that they're better because of their adjustability is thrown out the window along with performance and handling. If you're into the vDUB "stance" thing, just cut your springs and call it done. There's no point in wasting money on anything performance related if your car is just going to be driven from one parking lot to another.

SpasticDwarf cracked me up with his old rusty e28. That car was butchered. He chopped the roof, the chassis, grinded all of the paint off of it and at first he was running coilovers (because in his mind it was the "right" way to do things) Then he slammed the car all the way down to the ground and ran ridiculously stretched tires. At that point, do you think coilovers really helped performance? He already cut everything else on the car, might as well cut the suspension too, lol. Eventually he did, he went with airbags. But my point is, there is no point. If you only care about looks, cut the springs. You're not going to mess your car up any worse than you would from scraping and slamming over potholes.

Now if you're being honest WITH YOURSELF and you do plan on tracking your car, you could invest in a quality set of coilovers. Not that KW BS or any of the other crap kids are buying these days. I'm talking about TC Kline, Bilstein PSS9, H&R, Ground Control etc. Otherwise if you're going to drive your car mostly on the street like 99.99999% of the people and want a comfortable, well handling ride that is more than adequate for street/occasional track use, stick with good quality shocks/springs

My Rabbit GTI has H&R Coilovers and my Golf has B&G's. I'm considering something comparable for the TI. I don't have dillusions that this is a track car, but look at how the prices break down. H&R springs will set you back $229, $227 each for Koni front struts, then $119 and $112 for the rear shocks. That's $912. For $1131 I could have H&R coilovers.

I don't know why you don't like KW products. They manufacture the Weitec and ST lines of coilovers. I've had experience with the KW's and Weitecs in the past and can't complain at all.

My goal is not to slam the hell out of the car as it would defeat the purpose. But, I am mostly a fan of coilovers due to spring rate. It is true that I would probably adjust it once or twice and be done with it, but at least I know that wherever I set it will be the best compromise for my needs and no one elses.

I have found progressive lowering springs to be less than impressive in the past. They're squishy and ride decent until you hit a pot hole and then it bottoms out anyway. They're just too soft for how much they lower the car. Besides, I'd rather feel a little more connected to the road and be able to predict how the car handles.

Originally Posted by spidertri

What kits are you looking at? TC Kline coils are the same for M and non-M so they have mounting tabs on the strut bodies. Do you not have the ti front bar? It is thicker than the M bar, just mounts to the control arms. I've heard that it is a better set up that way.

I have the full M3 everything up front. The sway bar mounts to the struts and it has the offset bushings and all.

[cooljess76]

I retract what I said then. You make some legitimate points and I didn't catch the "for a little extra" in your previous post. I don't have anything against KW in particular, I just mentioned them because they were the first thing to pop into my head. There's a bunch of companies out there that just don't meet the quality of the big name brands. As for spring rates, H&R race is about as stiff as I can handle. Anything stiffer seems like the car would just explode if you hit a pothole.

[Platanos]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

Not that KW BS or any of the other crap kids are buying these days.:

Have you had bad experience with KW?


I just installed a set of KW V1 on the ti. I've owned H&R and ground control coil-over systems. I must say that I am truly impressed with the KW quality (welds/threads/material) over the latter. I've not driven with them yet but can't wait. I can tell you that after a few years, the H&R adjustment threads ended up corroding and adjusting became very difficult. I don't see that happening with the KW...

http://www.kw-suspension.com/us/kw_inox_line.php

[vwmikel]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

I retract what I said then. You make some legitimate points and I didn't catch the "for a little extra" in your previous post. I don't have anything against KW in particular, I just mentioned them because they were the first thing to pop into my head. There's a bunch of companies out there that just don't meet the quality of the big name brands. As for spring rates, H&R race is about as stiff as I can handle. Anything stiffer seems like the car would just explode if you hit a pothole.

Don't shoot me, but I've come across something which I'm considering that might not be on the approved list here: http://www.tunershop.com/Suspensions...=4&modell=5959

Apparently they're made by KW though have fixed dampening. They sound a lot like some of the more basic ST coilovers and cost less than most of the Chinese coilovers that are so prevalent, yet are German made.

They also said they would sell me a mixed set to get the components I need.

[spidertri]

Originally Posted by vwmikel

I have found progressive lowering springs to be less than impressive in the past. They're squishy and ride decent until you hit a pot hole and then it bottoms out anyway. They're just too soft for how much they lower the car. Besides, I'd rather feel a little more connected to the road and be able to predict how the car handles.

I completely agree with this, imo, linear springs feel and perform better than progressive springs. That being said, I think most of the KW kits come with progressive coilover style springs.

My point about the swaybar is that if you don't have a non-M bar now you can easily get one for cheap and use the control arm mounts. You don't need to mount to the struts if it makes finding a suspension kit harder.

[cooljess76]

Originally Posted by Platanos

Have you had bad experience with KW?


I just installed a set of KW V1 on the ti. I've owned H&R and ground control coil-over systems. I must say that I am truly impressed with the KW quality (welds/threads/material) over the latter. I've not driven with them yet but can't wait. I can tell you that after a few years, the H&R adjustment threads ended up corroding and adjusting became very difficult. I don't see that happening with the KW...

http://www.kw-suspension.com/us/kw_inox_line.php

Sorry Fernando, no I've never had any experiences with KW, so really I have no right to pick on them. I just know a bunch of the "stance" guys run them because they're cheaper than the the big name brands. I remember back when DDMtuning tried the coilover thing and it has just left a bad taste in my mouth as far as these newer companies flooding the market with products that aren't built to the same standards. I know a few people on here have run KW's with no problems, but I really wonder how well they stand up to the other brands. I mean, you always get people that do some small mod to their car and then claim it made a HUGE improvement. Like when someone fogs their airbox and all of a sudden they can barely handle the HP gains, lol.

Originally Posted by vwmikel

Don't shoot me, but I've come across something which I'm considering that might not be on the approved list here: http://www.tunershop.com/Suspensions...=4&modell=5959

Apparently they're made by KW though have fixed dampening. They sound a lot like some of the more basic ST coilovers and cost less than most of the Chinese coilovers that are so prevalent, yet are German made.

They also said they would sell me a mixed set to get the components I need.

^^^That's exactly the cheap stuff I'm talking about. But hey man, it's your car. I doubt anyone here will have any input about that brand. I've never heard of anyone running Tracer coilovers on a 318ti, but who knows.

I'm just one of those guys who would rather buy an affordable product that's proven over a cheap product from a company that will likely be out of business by the time your hospital bill arrives.

[vwmikel]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

^^^That's exactly the cheap stuff I'm talking about. But hey man, it's your car. I doubt anyone here will have any input about that brand. I've never heard of anyone running Tracer coilovers on a 318ti, but who knows.

I'm just one of those guys who would rather buy an affordable product that's proven over a cheap product from a company that will likely be out of business by the time your hospital bill arrives.

As I said though, they're apparently being made by KW. So, I'm not sure how terrible they could be. I don't know if it's the case these days, but a friend of mine has the KW V2's and they use a Koni insert. What more can you really ask for?

[cooljess76]

Ask yourself why KW uses Koni inserts, then ask yourself why KW is making Tracer coilovers.

R&D costs big $$$. Corners are being cut. They could make a crappy product, sell it under someone else's name with no fear of their own reputation being scarred.

[vwmikel]

Originally Posted by cooljess76

Ask yourself why KW uses Koni inserts, then ask yourself why KW is making Tracer coilovers.

R&D costs big $$$. Corners are being cut. They could make a crappy product, sell it under someone else's name with no fear of their own reputation being scarred.

Perhaps, but from a business standpoint does it make sense to set up a completely different assembly line to make an inferior product while disregarding any previous R&D? Especially when these come with a warranty? It really just doesn't make sense. I'm not saying that these are the best thing out there or that I will buy them. I'm just considering it. I would think KW used Koni inserts because it made financial sense to build on the expertise of Koni rather than developing something and purchasing the tooling to do it themselves.

[spidertri]

What stands out to me is when these cheap coils come out and have an application for every car on the planet. How can a company do proper R&D for spring rates and damper valving for all of those cars?

If it is some subsidiary company, what are they cheaping out on to get the price down? Why not just stick with the budget versions of the well known companies?

Regarding the tracers, it doesn't say they're made in germany in that ad, just "tested, tuned, and refined" on the autobahn. They are probably chinese made.