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Old 09-24-2012, 01:57 PM   #1
xxxJohnBoyxxx
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Default CCV solution for boosted motors

I have come up with a solution of the CCV valve being destroyed by boost. We have been just capping the CCV valve which causes no crankcase vacuum. This in turn cause ring blow by and oil leaks plus performance loss. If you leave the CCV in line without plugging it you will have boost pressure in the crankcase under boost and oil will come out of every place you can imagine. Mine blew off the dipstick and dumped 2 quarts in 1 run which caused major traction issues.

Here is the solution. Purchase a catch can and 2000-2004 volvo brake assist vacuum pump (Other pumps can be used like many Chevy, Audi, Jag, etc.) Plug off the CCV valve completely including the air vent for the diaphram. I use JB weld quick for the air vent hole and cut the vacuum hose from the CCV and block it with a bolt and hose clamp. This will completely eliminate the factory CCV.

Install a catch can off the valve cover CCV hose and then the electric vacuum brake assist pump on the other end of the catch can. This will ensure good vacuum at all times to the crankcase. The catch can will eliminate oil from getting into the vacuum pump. Problem solved I think I will report back my results

Here is the pump I purchased on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140855560111...84.m1423.l2649

Best to all, John Smith

Last edited by xxxJohnBoyxxx; 09-24-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:25 PM   #2
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American that use the vacuum pump for this mod:

• '82 Pontiac J2000
• '82-'84 Pontiac Pheonix
o '85-'86 Pontiac 6000
o '84-'86 Chevrolet Celebrity
o '82 Chevrolet Caprice
o '82 Chevrolet Cavalier
o '82-'85 Chevrolet Citation
o '82 Cadillac Cimmaron
o '82 Buick Skyhawk
o '82-'85 Buick Skylark
o '86 Oldsmobile Cierra
o '82-'84 Oldsmobile Omega
o '82 Oldsmobile Firenza
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:35 PM   #3
03whitegsr
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Fair warning, people have lit cars on fire trying this...

Those pumps are meant to deal with air, not fuel and oil vapor.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03whitegsr View Post
Fair warning, people have lit cars on fire trying this...

Those pumps are meant to deal with air, not fuel and oil vapor.
Please post your therory of why this or any brake booster pump will cause a fire otherwise don't post mis-information to make yourself feel good by crapping on my thread.

I have done my homework on this mod and have 29 years racing boats/cars with actual experience using these brake booster pumps. I'm fairly confident you are full of BS and have nothing to offer but a theory that oil vapor at any temp and all fuel vapor ratios will catch on fire which is completely false.

I'm not perfect but I try very hard not to post upgrades that are dangerous
to the point of burning down someone's car. I would have put in a disclaimer if there was any possible issues with this mod. Please post your back-up information or who's cars caught on fire by doing this mod and I will gladly eat a large helping of "Crow Pie". If you have nothing but your own therory that fuel and oil vapor will catch on fire using any electrical vacuum pump you are a person that needs to take the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in your mouth, in other words STFU.


I have done the research and have personal experience with systems like this and I just don't have the time to explain it all right now. If you want to learn then look up oil vapor flash temps and fuel/air ratio flash points as a start. Maybe look up the vacuum pump that is used for a brake booster pump since brake fluid is much harsher then oil or fuel. Brake booster pumps need to be able to ingest brake fluid vapor and liquid without catching on fire. This is a factory pump with no recalls ever for fire hazzard.

Reguards, John Smith
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Old 09-27-2012, 05:38 AM   #5
Jean H.318TI
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i just took my manifold off and deleted the disa valve and welded an aluminum piece there and deleted the pcv actually cut the hole piece out and just welded the air port shut going into the manifold, pics tomorrow and this mod sounds like a great upgrade i need to do next cuz im just dumping the oil fumes to the road
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #6
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Based on your attitude towards me, I'm struggling with how I want to respond. How about this:

I don't care enough about this topic to go dig up the various posts on this topic. If you want to take that as me not "backing up" my claim, that's fine. I looked into this YEARS ago and decided then it was a bad idea for more then one reason.

Good luck with your project though. Some conclusive evidence it works would be awesome...but I have a feeling it's not going to work like you think it will.

Last edited by 03whitegsr; 09-27-2012 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxJohnBoyxxx View Post
Please post your therory of why this or any brake booster pump will cause a fire otherwise don't post mis-information to make yourself feel good by crapping on my thread.

I have done my homework on this mod and have 29 years racing boats/cars with actual experience using these brake booster pumps. I'm fairly confident you are full of BS and have nothing to offer but a theory that oil vapor at any temp and all fuel vapor ratios will catch on fire which is completely false.

I'm not perfect but I try very hard not to post upgrades that are dangerous
to the point of burning down someone's car. I would have put in a disclaimer if there was any possible issues with this mod. Please post your back-up information or who's cars caught on fire by doing this mod and I will gladly eat a large helping of "Crow Pie". If you have nothing but your own therory that fuel and oil vapor will catch on fire using any electrical vacuum pump you are a person that needs to take the cotton out of your ears and stuff it in your mouth, in other words STFU.


I have done the research and have personal experience with systems like this and I just don't have the time to explain it all right now. If you want to learn then look up oil vapor flash temps and fuel/air ratio flash points as a start. Maybe look up the vacuum pump that is used for a brake booster pump since brake fluid is much harsher then oil or fuel. Brake booster pumps need to be able to ingest brake fluid vapor and liquid without catching on fire. This is a factory pump with no recalls ever for fire hazzard.

Reguards, John Smith
my simple solution to that was to install an other outlet and put a filter on it no problems no oil spills works fine the last year btw im putting down 400 whp on pump gas at 24.6 psi i bet your surprise to see me online lol.
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blowin 4 View Post
my simple solution to that was to install an other outlet and put a filter on it no problems no oil spills works fine the last year btw im putting down 400 whp on pump gas at 24.6 psi i bet your surprise to see me online lol.
Danny, the joy of OBD-I. I can't run without vacuum to my crankcase, it causes oil leaks and the turbo to back-up with oil.

I thought you went I-6 and stopped posting here. Glad to see you back
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03whitegsr View Post
Based on your attitude towards me, I'm struggling with how I want to respond. How about this:

I don't care enough about this topic to go dig up the various posts on this topic. If you want to take that as me not "backing up" my claim, that's fine. I looked into this YEARS ago and decided then it was a bad idea for more then one reason.

Good luck with your project though. Some conclusive evidence it works would be awesome...but I have a feeling it's not going to work like you think it will.
You care enough to post your claim that it will cause a fire. Please guide me in the right direction so I can learn; since you state you don't care enough about it to explain. If you would be a team player on this board maybe explain why it is a bad idea since you did research on it. I think you the wrong idea about me. I want facts not BS that "it will catch on fire". I strive each day to help the board with ideas and ways to do things better. Yes I was tough in my first post to you but I did that to see how you would respond. I still firmly believe that it will work without causing a fire hazzard and value any input from people that can prove I'm wrong and this will cause a fire and burn up my car which I value more then my wife
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:09 PM   #10
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LOL, You crack me up John. Just as an innocent bystander I would like to say that John has always been a very helpful and all around good guy on this board and based on what I have seen him do on his car and others I would have no problem taking his advice.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98318ti View Post
LOL, You crack me up John. Just as an innocent bystander I would like to say that John has always been a very helpful and all around good guy on this board and based on what I have seen him do on his car and others I would have no problem taking his advice.

Thanks for your kind words but I'm wrong sometimes and don't want to post stuff that will damage others cars. Prime example was the DISA valve on a turbo car. Remember it blew in 400 miles and took out my $12K motor. Now we know DISA valves destroy motors on a turbo motor.

It's all about learning and I want to understand what it is that will make my car catch on fire with the Volvo vacuum pump pulling crankcase vacuum through my catch can and carbon filter before it hits the pump?

I'm willing to learn but think I have all the bases covered for this setup, I've been wrong in the past and I'm willing to look intop other issues I might have over-looked. Only issue I see is too much vacuum which will cause oil pressure problems at idle like we had on Yoda's turbo install. I can throttle down the vacuum this pump makes with a simple solution.

The only purpose of me call out 03whitegsr is to learn more so my car doesn't catch on fire like he states or find out he has nothing to offer but dooms day facts which I don't follow. If all dooms day issues were followed we would not be using anything flamable in out cars and just walking out to the car to drive it would be a hazzard that could get you killed.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:16 PM   #12
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I get that, just saying I think you do your homework and I don't like to see someone just fly in like a seagull and crap all over some that really helps the members of this board. Over on another of my forums LSITECH a lot of the FI guys are using homemade catch cans for this purpose. Is that something that would work or is the fact that these engines need vacuum on the crankcase make that non-viable as an option.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98318ti View Post
I get that, just saying I think you do your homework and I don't like to see someone just fly in like a seagull and crap all over some that really helps the members of this board. Over on another of my forums LSITECH a lot of the FI guys are using homemade catch cans for this purpose. Is that something that would work or is the fact that these engines need vacuum on the crankcase make that non-viable as an option.
I have used the LSITECH forum for some of my research. I have a catch can before my pump to remove oil vapor. I need the pump since I need vacuum in my crankcase to make the turbo system work correctly. Standard BMW CCV is pulled from the intake manifold and when I go into boost it also boosts the crankcase so oil comes flying out of everywhere. My dip stick blew off and dumped 2 quarts in one run so lets you know how much boost is hitting the crankcase. I need to eliminate the stock CCV system and plug it off. Then have a separate system to sypply vacuum to the crankcase at all time for multiple reasons: Oil control on seals and turbo scavenging of oil. Better running car with vacuum in crankcase (Proven fact). Other items too that I will get into but I need to get to work on this project right now due to my schedule for the day.

Thanks for your support and the suggestion of other websites that can help me. It's all about solving problems when we modify these 318 motors with large boost psi and the more I can learn and verify as good solutions the more I will share so others can decide if they want to follow what I only recomend.

Best, John S
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:41 PM   #14
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I care enough to respond, but not really enough to go redo the research I did a while back on this. The incidences I read about revolved around oil building up in the pump and then the pump failing catastrophically. The incidences of fire was like 1 or 2, don't really recall and you are right, if you are using a charcoal filter then vapor should not make it to the pump anyway. You didn’t mention the charcoal filter though.

The majority that tries using similar pumps never really test the system to see if it is actually working. The few that do test it find it doesn't keep up at high loads. There is a lot of blow-by volume to keep up with maintaining a vacuum which means a lot of power to run the pump. If that pump isn't consuming a decent amount of current, I can pretty much guarantee from an engineering standpoint, it's not going to keep up. Empirically, people have already shown they don't keep up though, as mentioned previously so that opinion doesn’t really matter anyway.


If you want something that does work, I've personally worked with this pump:
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_wet.html

It is a single pressure stage and two scavenge stages. It's meant specifically to be an external "wet sump" pump with a scavenge stage for crankcase ventilation. That pump would pull the crank case to almost a complete vacuum at 1500 RPM, we had to use a regulator line to vent air into the crank case after about 15"Hg of vacuum. Despite that amount of vacuum, it was lucky to keep more than 7"Hg under about 25psi of boost (700 WHP) and at the 800WHP level it was around 5"Hg. It made oil pressure drop like a rock when it was pulling a hard vacuum, but it’s not an issue. You are simply dropping the absolute pressure of the system but the actual pressure differentials (and flow) in the system remains about the same.

Like I said though, put it in and try it out. Just do yourself a favor and measure crankcase pressure with and without it. I agree, fire is the lowest concern, but I did come across more then one account of it happening and there aren't a ton of people trying this out so it is concerning to me.

If your turbo return line configuration requires you to pull a vacuum in the crankcase to work, you should consider an electric oil scavenge pump. There is a pump specifically made for this purpose that the Porsche guys use. They aren't cheap but they work and are specifically designed for this purpose. Another option would be the pump Subaru will be using in the new WRX.

Further, I'm all for trying out things most people say not to. I like to learn on my own as well. I'm "new" to this board as I never posted up until a year ago, but I've been building and tuning turbo 4-cylinders for 15 years. When it comes to making power, I've tried a lot of strange things and I'm always open to new ideas.

Last edited by 03whitegsr; 09-28-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:45 PM   #15
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Thanks for being part of this CCV discussion. I know you have something to add and I can learn from you. We do have something in common, we both like to try things and have them fail to prove to ourself's that it just won't work. I have used a high end scavenger oil pump which failed in 1,000 miles (For sale to anyone on the board and will cost $100 to fix) and left me stranded. I found pulling a slight vacuum solved the turbo scavenging issue and didn't require the additial scavenging pump. The turbo issue is I'm putting full oil pressure to the turbo which is well over 50psi and sometimes as high as 90psi due to the oil mods on my motor. I installed the CCV system today and just got back from a 50 mile run. The pump is hot, maybe 120-130 degrees. I can hold my hand on it for a second and then it burns me so I'm just guessing on the temp. There was no puke from the pump so far as I have a catch area to see if stuff is going through the pump. I'm showing a vacuum of -10hg at idle and most normal driving. It drops to -4 to -5hg under boost at 15psi. The pump draws less then 7.5 amps at 13 volts since the fuse has not blown yet. I'm only in the beginning stage of checking this system out but it lasted 50 miles so far. The pump is noisy like a race fuel pump. Let's see what happens and I pray it doesn't burn up the car. I've located the pump system away from flamables and in a cool area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03whitegsr View Post
I care enough to respond, but not really enough to go redo the research I did a while back on this. The incidences I read about revolved around oil building up in the pump and then the pump failing catastrophically. The incidences of fire was like 1 or 2, don't really recall and you are right, if you are using a charcoal filter then vapor should not make it to the pump anyway. You didn’t mention the charcoal filter though.

The majority that tries using similar pumps never really test the system to see if it is actually working. The few that do test it find it doesn't keep up at high loads. There is a lot of blow-by volume to keep up with maintaining a vacuum which means a lot of power to run the pump. If that pump isn't consuming a decent amount of current, I can pretty much guarantee from an engineering standpoint, it's not going to keep up. Empirically, people have already shown they don't keep up though, as mentioned previously so that opinion doesn’t really matter anyway.


If you want something that does work, I've personally worked with this pump:
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_wet.html

It is a single pressure stage and two scavenge stages. It's meant specifically to be an external "wet sump" pump with a scavenge stage for crankcase ventilation. That pump would pull the crank case to almost a complete vacuum at 1500 RPM, we had to use a regulator line to vent air into the crank case after about 15"Hg of vacuum. Despite that amount of vacuum, it was lucky to keep more than 7"Hg under about 25psi of boost (700 WHP) and at the 800WHP level it was around 5"Hg. It made oil pressure drop like a rock when it was pulling a hard vacuum, but it’s not an issue. You are simply dropping the absolute pressure of the system but the actual pressure differentials (and flow) in the system remains about the same.

Like I said though, put it in and try it out. Just do yourself a favor and measure crankcase pressure with and without it. I agree, fire is the lowest concern, but I did come across more then one account of it happening and there aren't a ton of people trying this out so it is concerning to me.

If your turbo return line configuration requires you to pull a vacuum in the crankcase to work, you should consider an electric oil scavenge pump. There is a pump specifically made for this purpose that the Porsche guys use. They aren't cheap but they work and are specifically designed for this purpose. Another option would be the pump Subaru will be using in the new WRX.

Further, I'm all for trying out things most people say not to. I like to learn on my own as well. I'm "new" to this board as I never posted up until a year ago, but I've been building and tuning turbo 4-cylinders for 15 years. When it comes to making power, I've tried a lot of strange things and I'm always open to new ideas.

Last edited by xxxJohnBoyxxx; 09-28-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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