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Old 10-13-2017, 11:39 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anassa View Post
"Hi, the only way to use the e36 m3 caliper on the e46 caliper bracket (#506). they will slide on the e46 non-m slider for the rear"

So! Hopefully 300mm rotors + SRS adapter + e46 (#506) caliper braket + e36 m3 rear caliper = Awsomeness!
AWESOME!! This would save me some pain in the ass if I can make the M3 calipers work.

Although ... I'm not sure what they mean by "e46 caliper bracket (#506)" ... I'm assuming they're talking about the caliper carrier from an e46 325,328 or Z4 that you would've used from their original design ... but the part number for that carrier is 34216758134 according to RealOEM.com. There's not a "506" anywhere in that number!?!???

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=34_1013

Last edited by AFDanHef; 10-13-2017 at 11:47 PM. Reason: add link
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Old 10-14-2017, 10:20 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
AWESOME!! This would save me some pain in the ass if I can make the M3 calipers work.

Although ... I'm not sure what they mean by "e46 caliper bracket (#506)" ... I'm assuming they're talking about the caliper carrier from an e46 325,328 or Z4 that you would've used from their original design ... but the part number for that carrier is 34216758134 according to RealOEM.com. There's not a "506" anywhere in that number!?!???

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=34_1013
Ya dunno about #506 bracket, maybe its stamped on the bracket? Just try the regular e46 bracket since that is what most people can easily get?
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:43 PM   #93
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I called them and confirmed, 506 is the number stamped on the caliper carrier from the E46 325,328 or Z4. I ordered their bracket and hopefully it will get here sometime this week, I'm going to go pick up a couple of the carriers from the junkyard and I've got some nice fresh new Brembo slotted rotors. Hopefully I'll have it all installed by weeks end and I'll post the results.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
I called them and confirmed, 506 is the number stamped on the caliper carrier from the E46 325,328 or Z4. I ordered their bracket and hopefully it will get here sometime this week, I'm going to go pick up a couple of the carriers from the junkyard and I've got some nice fresh new Brembo slotted rotors. Hopefully I'll have it all installed by weeks end and I'll post the results.
Sounds good, it would be really interesting to see if the m3 calipers cover the 300mm rotors!

That actually gets me thinking . . . could the front m3 caliper also be fitted onto a different bracket to fit over front 300mm rotors from the e46?

The only reason to do this would be to be able to fit a smaller wheel over the brakes - which could be helpful to some people who have different regulations for their series/group/etc? ?

Imagine: 300mm vented rotors front and rear with e36 m3 calipers all around with wide 15" wheels and stick tires . Could be interesting, and useful to someone!

I know the 300mm rotors/e46 calipers will work with the correct offset 15" wheels but if the m3 caliper is bigger it might be tough. hmmmmmm...
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:12 AM   #95
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I don't think you would want to run the same setup in front and rear ... brake bias and all. If you can only run 300mm in front because of 15" wheels then I would run something smaller in the rear.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
I don't think you would want to run the same setup in front and rear ... brake bias and all. If you can only run 300mm in front because of 15" wheels then I would run something smaller in the rear.
Well honestly the idea is just theoretical because we have had people asking about largest brakes possible with 15" for rally ? ? ? Not sure. So it could helpful to someone.

As for the brake bias, I don't see too much of a problem. Clamping force creates the brake bias and that comes from the calipers, while rotors are more for cooling. As long as the pad has complete contact at all parts to the rotor the size increase is only beneficial for cooling purposes, otherwise it is just more unsprung weight. Please correct me if I am completely wrong!

We also see minimal change in rotor diameter from other models:
z3m/e36 m3 = Front 315mm - Rear 312mm
e46 330ci = Front 325mm - Rear 320mm

Just two random examples off the top of my head. I think the smaller rear is just because the cooling isn't needed, not that it is detrimental. The front will most likely do more work and needs to be cooled more - thus the bigger rotor and being vented etc vs rear rotors which happen to smaller.

At least for this application. Again - I am just going off head knowledge as I don't race, have race experience etc, so feel free to correct me!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

Good links with more rear brake upgrade information:

Bluebimma Mercedes rear calipers

Post #21, use of z4 parts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95///M3 View Post
Bought the 300mm 128 adapters.

Used Z4 3.0si rear calipers and brackets. 128 300mm rotors did NOT fit for me. Ended up using smaller Z4 rotors.
^^ That is post #21: 95///M3 used z4 3.0si rear caliper/bracket and z4 rotor - did not specify rotor, but also used the SRS adapter.

Why is this interesting, that means that with that adapter almost the entire z4 rear brake system bolted on= if there is aftermarket support for larger discs, or calipers or other parts that bolt on to the z4 3.0si then with the adapter in turn it should maybe also bolt onto the 318ti. Possible?
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:53 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anassa View Post
We also see minimal change in rotor diameter from other models:
z3m/e36 m3 = Front 315mm - Rear 312mm
e46 330ci = Front 325mm - Rear 320mm
That's interesting .... the equations and figuring brake bias is pretty befuddling to me so I won't pretend to understand it ... but I know it can be a factor and will decrease braking performance if not considered.

One thing you didn't mention, distance from center of the hub to the caliper is a factor in stopping power. The larger diameter is not just about heat dissipation, it's also about leverage. That's also why larger diameter rotors stop better.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:58 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
That's interesting .... the equations and figuring brake bias is pretty befuddling to me so I won't pretend to understand it ... but I know it can be a factor and will decrease braking performance if not considered.

One thing you didn't mention, distance from center of the hub to the caliper is a factor in stopping power. The larger diameter is not just about heat dissipation, it's also about leverage. That's also why larger diameter rotors stop better.
I don't understand it either lol,

As for the distance of hub to caliper, I haven't thought of that. Good observation! But if the caliper is further away as with larger rotors, how does that help the clamping force or the leverage for braking better? I can see that if it is farther away the rotor patch that get the initial bite also has further to travel to make a full rotation - but that just gives it longer to cool down before the patch is under the caliper again ???
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:03 AM   #99
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uuuuummmmmmm .... it works because .... science!!!! lol other than that I can't explain
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:05 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
uuuuummmmmmm .... it works because .... science!!!! lol other than that I can't explain
LOLOLOLOL!

I guess we are stuck until someone imparts their wisdom on us.

Update when you find out how it goes for you!
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:09 AM   #101
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lol ... just kidding. Ok think of it this way ... if you were trying to stop the car by using your hands as the brake calipers ... which do you think would be easier, small rotors or large rotors?
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:12 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
lol ... just kidding. Ok think of it this way ... if you were trying to stop the car by using your hands as the brake calipers ... which do you think would be easier, small rotors or large rotors?
Small rotors, less rotating mass and weight/momentum to stop?


Wait.. assume the same speed and clamping capability of my hands the further away the slower the rotor is spinning and thus the easier it is to stop?


Oh btw it looks like the 128i has the same size 300mm rotor front and rear.
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Old 10-18-2017, 04:21 AM   #103
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You're not trying to stop just the rotor ... you're trying to stop the car. If you wanted to move the car by turning the wheels/tires by hand ... would you push/pull from the outer wheel/tire area or the inside of the wheel near the hub? Same applies with getting it to stop. Maybe that's not the easiest to understand example.

Google bro!! Here's some science:

1. Increase disc radius
Larger discs will allow for more brake torque as the brake pad will apply pressure at a larger radius, allowing for a higher moment. Brake torque is equal to the force applied by the pad multiplied by the distance at which the force is applied from the center of the wheel. In this case, we’re increasing the distance from the centre. This is a good thing.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...g-performance/

It was surprisingly hard to find something that explained this well actually. I wanted to find a nice handy dandy YouTube video but couldn't find sh1t.

Also, the 128i uses 300x24 in front and 300x20 in rear. 4mm thickness difference ... and probably pads and calipers are smaller. They would never use the exact same setup in the front as they would in the rear ... unless they were using some electric wizardry to control the bias ... and then what would be the point!?

I think this is about as good as I can do bro .. lol if you've still got questions then Google is fantastic!!

Last edited by AFDanHef; 10-18-2017 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:03 PM   #104
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I actually did take some time to google and find out why the distance from hub to clamp point would make a difference but as you mentioned yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
It was surprisingly hard to find something that explained this well actually. I wanted to find a nice handy dandy YouTube video but couldn't find sh1t.
It still doesn't make 100% sense why having the clamp point being farther away from hub = better stopping power. I understand it for cooling purposes or if for some reason the pad does not have full contact = more surface area to apply clamping force on, but if in both cases clamping force of the pad has full surface area contact -( being a casual enthusiast and not engineer )- I can't picture in my mind how it would help.

As for the initial example stopping the rotor = stopping the car, so that doesn't seem to make much difference, and when pushing the wheel of the car, we push the outside because we have best grip - like on a bicycle the bigger the gear the more torque you need to apply to push it forward, so the bigger the wheel the more torque you need, so if the wheel was huge - well I wouldn't even be able to push it then lol - but I would pull/push from where I have the best grip and maybe push from closer in if there was a handle. But this goes into a whole different talking because now we are practically talking about gearing and transmission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
1. Increase disc radius
Larger discs will allow for more brake torque as the brake pad will apply pressure at a larger radius, allowing for a higher moment. Brake torque is equal to the force applied by the pad multiplied by the distance at which the force is applied from the center of the wheel. In this case, we’re increasing the distance from the centre. This is a good thing.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/eng...g-performance/
I can't imagine this in a way that makes sense.

Honestly this was more for me about the discussion and exploration of the idea then necessarily getting the perfectly correct answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFDanHef View Post
Also, the 128i uses 300x24 in front and 300x20 in rear. 4mm thickness difference ... and probably pads and calipers are smaller. They would never use the exact same setup in the front as they would in the rear ... unless they were using some electric wizardry to control the bias ... and then what would be the point!?
I was just talking about diameter! Both being 300mm - the above examples of the m3 and 330ci also have different thickness, that is just one more factor that makes it more complicated, but again I think it has more to do with dispersion of the heat as heat is always the main enemy. Also it decreases the chance of cracking rotors.

As for what you mentioned about using the same setup front and rear, that was only talking about rotor diameter the calipers clamping down on the 300mm rotors would be different, like the e36 m3 front and rear caliper/piston size are different - thus still having acceptable/safe brake bias.

So that brings me still to the idea of using:

Rotors:
-Front: e46 300x22
-Rear: 128i 300x20
Calipers:
-Front: e36 m3
-Rear: e36 m3
Brake Booster: e36 m3 booster?

The rear would get sufficient cooling - the difference in front/rear piston/caliper size will keep the brake bias even, e36 m3 booster would give solid pedal feel. The front might get hot/fade quickly if on track without good ducting and cooling since it is a smaller rotor (just guesstimating)- but will be fine on the street, could potentially be not as good as stock e36 m3 brake setup due to above mentioned theory, but still better than stock caliper, and potentially best 15" wheel setup?? Provided the caliper itself isn't too big.

Biggest problem is . . . will the caliper fit on a e46/z3 bracket for 300mm discs??



(Btw thanks for diving into this with me, this is more fun mind exercise for me than anything else )
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Last edited by anassa; 10-18-2017 at 08:07 PM. Reason: grammar/spelling
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