youth or experience?
 

Hey everybody, nothing real exciting here but I have an interesting scenario/bet going on with my son (teen ti). For the first time my son and I will competing in the same autocross class, my son in his '02 325ci and myself (ironically) in my son's '99 318ti, both running in the street prepped class. For some extra info the 325ci has a 5spd and is completely stock other than a set of 18in ASA AR9 wheels with some very low profile tires, and the 318ti is a sport model with a 5spd, a cold air intake, storming exhaust and a set of 17in Kosei K1's. My son claims that he will beat me no problem with the 325ci, typical kid. However, unlike my son where I may lack in youth I have been doing autocrosses for the better part of 20 years and have attended numerous driving schools. My son has competed in about 4 autocross competitions, 2 driving schools and one road rally. My question for all of you is who do you think is going to prove to be more successful? And in case anyone is wondering, the bet is a months worth of gas, loser pays.

oh father...

If your son had no experience whatsoever my money would be on you hands down. However, it looks like he has a few rodeos under his belt as well and he has a faster car so it might be a good contest. The trick will be keeping his youthful exuberance under control and not overdriving the car. Remember TeenTi smooth is fast. Joe, As a dad of an 18 year old son I wish you luck cause they don't win as gracefully as we do, seems they like to to tell everyone and not let you forget it. Good luck to both of you. :)

Beat the crap out of him. :)

Haha we'll see, I think my dad will be a little cautious about how hard he pushes my car, he's not gonna wanna pay to fix anything he might damage

This is awesome!

Money is on dad but ok rootin for the teen as I just turned 17 not too long ago. Come on youth class lets show the old farts how capable we are.

i dunno how much of a factor this will be but theres very little tread on the tires on my ci, so I'm gonna be giving them quite the punishment since they're at the end of their life

Dad has the better car for an autocross.

I autocross an 00 323 wagon. It has tons of mods, coil overs, corner balanced, urethane and delrin everything, intake, pulleys, software, 355mm BBK, 19 inch lightweight OZ wheels with 300 treadware tires... etc. I happen to run in the same class as a ti owner on this list. His car is virtually stock... I think his only mods are stickier tires (100 something treadware), H&R's, Bilsteins, a limited slip, and he regularly beats me.

There is really not a lot of difference between an E46 323 and 325. As a point of reference I am generally 3-4 seconds faster than any stockish non-M 3 series that shows up on street tires.

Not knowing the skill level of either driver, dad should win easily. If you really want to see who is faster co-drive the same car, either way let us know how it turns out.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The 325ci in my opinion, having driven both cars, has a better suspension than the 318ti and coupled with the fact that its got a better power to weight ratio and a 0-60 time thats almost 2 seconds faster than the 318ti, I would have to say my son definitely has the better car for the autocross. It might not be a huge advantage but i definitely think either of us would be faster in the 325ci as opposed to the 318ti. I really believe its going to come down to our skills as drivers to see who will be faster.

I am quite sure about it, I have seen it play out dozens of times! 0-60 times mean little at an autocross. Having a shorter wheel base and a 400 lbs weight advantage does mean something. The tighter the course the farther ahead the ti will be.

i'd have to vote for father. much more driving skill and experience.

The wheel base on the 325ci is only 1 inch longer than the 318ti, 107.3in vs 106.3in, and when each of us in the car the ti will only have about a 250lb weight advantage one the ci (my son is a twig, he might weigh 140, I weigh about 215) and ill be running the ti on a bit more gas than my son will be on the ci if i know him well enough. I just don't see how thats going to be enough of an advantage to make up for the differences in the suspension and power. Also, the courses that we run are generally on the longer side. But who knows, its definitely going to be a good competition between the two of us.

For sure. I will be interested to see how it turns out.

If anyone is interested we'll be running this competition at Watkins Glen International with the GVC-BMWCCA and the Niagra PCA on June 26/27. While we might have the bet going my goal for the day is to beat at least a few old guys having their midlife crisis in a jumped up VW Beetle (Porsches). I'll admit that i don't have nearly the same skills as my father but I'm not just another teenage kid in a nice car. I've had my fair share of performance driving and can generally keep up with guys running 300HP Mustangs at the track with my 325ci just because of my ability to corner better.

As much as I may not want to give him credit, this is the truth, he does know how to drive a car, maybe not as well as he thinks but he's not without his talent. My wife's sister is married to Bret Seafuse, who's father and him own JBS Motorports and run in the GS Class of the Continental Tire Challenge Series (formerly the Koni Challenge Series) in their Mustang FR500C and Boss 302R. Matteo (my son) has worked quite a bit with Bret and his dad to improve his driving skills and it definitely shows.

actually giving me some credit dad? so maybe you'll let me supercharge the mustang now:dribble:

You both win!....spending time together father/son (especially racing) is "priceless".

NOW BURY THE FLATBELLY DAD!

Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance... :)

But seriously, ^^^ "Grandpa Tuner" has it right. Doesn't matter in the end, you get to play together with big boy toys! Everybody wins!

+1 :cool:

This is a great bet. I hope to do something like this with my kids. Actually, my daughter goes for her driving road test today.

You know who I'm rooting for!!!

+46 hp to push 450 extra lbs of generic/less-nimble car is not enough to beat the ti around an auto-x course. Dad has a double advantage IMO, not to mention the ti beats the e46 in looks alone.

I definitely agree that spending time together is a great thing but beating each other is definitely a secondary goal. Beating some Porsches on the other hand, thats the main goal for this particular event. We both share quite the distaste for Porsches.

for sure, to hell with all the jumped up beetles

My money's on the ti as well. A well driven ti, especially on a tight course, can easily best cars that are much newer and faster on paper.

Agreed.

Still feeling confident about your chances Matteo?

so whens the match?? I got my bet on the young and rash son who is not completely inexperienced and maybe some of that rashness will work in his advantage! (hey someone has to support the young and reckless lol)

The autocross is June 17th I believe, and its nice to get some support every once and a while

As far as the car side goes, I took my ti out to it's first autocross a couple weeks ago, I have to say I'm surprised how well it does. It is completely stock on suspension and engine mods, but has a bunch of weight pulled out of it (EVO seats, airbags, A/C, cruise, rear interior) and has some RS-3s on 17x85. Kosei K4Rs. I've also owned a 2002 325is with coilovers, swaybars, and bushings on good summer tires.

As surprised as I am to say this, I think the ti could out do it pretty easily. It's geared low enough to work well on auto-x courses and the weight makes a huge difference.

But...
I also have a heavily built EVO 8 that should be able to take FTD often and I get beat by cars with FAR LESS done to them simply because they are a better driver then I. I would say I'm a "good driver" relative to the average with ~10 years of experience, but compared to guys that have been doing it for 30 years and have mastered their skills, I'm probably terrible.

It doesn't matter which car is better here unless the times are very close, the better driver is going to win. Now being more experienced doesn't make you a better driver if your experience has been 20 years of doing it wrong...

I agree with both these points as of right now i wish i had more time with my dad before i ship out. Also, I have first hand experience with the old age and treachery thing in alot of little competitions with my dad .... Teen Ti WATCH BOTH YOUR CARS LIKE A HAWK for a week before going out LOL.

haha, he won't be going anywhere near my cars, and if he does he knows that ill strike down with swift vengeance upon his beloved 1600-2

Not trying to say he will hurt the car your driving somehow slow it done but most likely do something to make the car he's driving better (new sticky tires) or who knows what those old guys are sneaky and know some tricks that we don't yet. Best example Smokey Yunick.

haha i know, we've got enough respect for one another but if he wants to put nice tires on one of my cars ill take it

+1

I love this! Wish I could be in NY for the main event this summer. I voted for Dad, but only 'cause I am closer to his age than teen ti's ;).

Assuming one drives ~1500 miles per month and gets 25mpg, your wager is 60 gallons of dinosaur juice. At ~$4/gal, the wager is ~$240. Let's call it $250 to account for the estimation factor.

More so than wheel size, my experience is that the right tires on a lighter car make the biggest difference for an autoX. So, Joe... I think you need to slap $600 worth of 225/50-16 competition rubber on the stock 16-inch wheels that came with your son's ti. Inflate them to ~45lbs at each corner to increase the stickiness, dial out any understeer and keep the bottom of the tire in contact with the pavement. You will drive circles around him!

teen ti will then subsidize your outlay by buying one month's worth of gas for you. You will be out $350 for the win, but you will corral eternal bragging rights to being the better driver. Isn't that worth $350? :D When it is all over, you might even be able to sell him the new sticky autoX wheel/tire setup for $350! $350 for a set that has only been used for one autoX is a deal! I'm sure there are many autoX'ers here that will buy them from you if he doesn't. Bwahahahahah! Age and experience, indeed! [Joe--Hope I did not just give away your strategy!]

haha not quite my strategy, I highly doubt Matteo would let me change anything on the car without his approval, especially with the bet. And I've got a feeling that if he allowed me to put on some new sticky tires he'd make a caveat where they stayed on the car and technically belonged to him. But he told me that on race day I am allowed to modify the car to whatever spec I desire. However, that only gives me a few hours to work on the car and I'm probably going to have to spend a lot of that time making sure he hasn't sabotaged me in any way. Thats the problem with Matteo, he's probably one of the best in terms of sportsmanship when it comes to others but I know what he's capable of if he feels like screwing with me and as his father he gets a kick out of such things. Either way that gives me a maximum of I'd say 1 hour of time to prep the car at home and maybe another hour at the track. Frankly I'm not too worried about it and am feeling fairly confident about my chances. It should be a fun day matter the outcome though.

I like the confidence! I'd still check craigslist an hour before you leave for the track...never know what sort of an edge you might pick up... ;)

FWIW, my nearly stock 318ti managed to get beat by a whole 0.5 seconds on a 40 second coarse by a Foxbody mustang at the last local auto-X. I suppose I should mention that foxbody mustang driver claimed to be well experienced...and the car was on Hoosier A6s...with a fully built suspension...and a built motor...did I mention it was also supercharged? I actually had him beat until his very last run but I couldn't best my previous runs.

These cars can hold their own. If I could get some front negative camber on the car, I KNOW it would make a HUGE difference as I'm only using about 1/3 of the tire under heavy corners as it is cooking the outside edge of the RS-3s.

Like I said above, driver is about all that matters. That car should have beat me by several seconds...but it didn't. Just food for thought.

Should only take about 30 minutes to strip the interior except for the drivers seat. Don't forget to ditch the spare tire and all that crap back there. Doing all that should easily save you 150-200 pounds. Keep us posted on the outcome after the event.

Justin

a little update for everybody:

this past saturday both my father and i attended and autocross "school" me in the 325ci and my dad in the ti. the ti has been acting up lately and it seems like under hard acceleration that the driveshaft is hitting the body, as my dad put it, so he took it a bit easy. now I'm not sure how much he was taking off but the ci looked much better in the opinions of the instructors. i was able to stop faster, accelerate better and corner much flatter and faster.